D3, D3S or D4S

BillN_33

BillN_33

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Since joining this Forum I am reviewing all my equipment

My main interest is Bird photography ……… but also any general stuff, (but I have an M8).

I have a D300, a D7100 and a Nikon 300mm f4m just acquired a 300mm f2.8VR and have a 70 200mm f2.8VR plus a 50mm and lots of good old Nikon F glass

I use both cameras - and I have found that it depends on the subject and lighting conditions

………..a lot of bird shots are "crops" - a lot of bird shots I need a high shutter speed - I need a better low light body to use on certain occasions so that I can maintain a high shutter speed and keep the noise down

I do not want a D800E ……… my computers and processing time are already complaining about the 22 meg D7100 RAW file.
To date I have printed very little, but that will change

so which one - a used D3 at £1,000 with 100,000 actuations - a D3S at £2,000 with 50 or 60,000 actuations or a new D4S

I cannot really see me buying another body for some time and bear in mind my interest is bird and nature photography and I have a D7100

What do you guys think?
 
ST4 said:
Sell the D7100. Get the D4 or D3S. Smaller files too, only 16mp as opposed to 22mp.
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I agree with the file size …………. they are getting too big as I indicated ……… I would rather keep the D7100 for when I need the extra DX range and x 1.3 in crop mode
 
I think you have the best camera now with the D7100 with 24mp a crop sensor.That is a 450 mmf2.8 with your 300mm f2.8 put a 1.4 converter on it and your at 630mm f4.With far less weight and more resolution then any full frame set up and at least half the cost.I would never go full frame for bird photography let alone a 12mp camera such as the D3 or D3s or even the D4s at 16 mp.The low light extra quality is very marginal for something like bird photography where detail matters. I have a D3s and a D7100.Until it is dark and I don't mind some noise the D3s gathers dust.All my motorsport is done with a D7100 I find no need for 10 fps were the focus cannot keep up regardless of what Nikon claim. Here come the FF fanatics.:exit:
 
BillN_33 said:
I agree with the file size …………. they are getting too big as I indicated ……… I would rather keep the D7100 for when I need the extra DX range and x 1.3 in crop mode
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D4 will do a DX mode, albiet at a reduced pixel count. Maybe a longer lens to counteract the larger sensor and lose the D7100.

Or as Kestrel says, make do with the D7100
 
Thanks - I also have a x 1.4TC and the new TC-20E lll which works great with the 300mm f4 and 300mm f2.8 respectively
 
Joeturner11 said:
Don't discounter a Nikon D3, It is a very good camera for birding, There is one on the classifieds on here with - 5000 shots and only £1150 :)
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Thanks Joe - I saw that you have used one from your web site which looks very good

I have not been a member for long enough to look at the classified
I'll read up on the D3 ……. so that when I see it I will know something about it
 
BillN_33 said:
Thanks Joe - I saw that you have used one from your web site which looks very good

I have not been a member for long enough to look at the classified
I'll read up on the D3 ……. so that when I see it I will know something about it
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Its a great camera, The D3s is only really better because of the ISO. I find for birding the D3 can get clean images upto 3200 ISO. and can safely use it upto ISO 6400 for Sport Photography. If your not going to be shooting in harsh environments then mite be worth saving the money and getting a D3
 
I have a D3s and D7100 and as far as I am concerned the D7100 24mp crop sensor is far better than the 12mp D3s for birds the difference is head and shoulders.The only FF camera for birds is the D800 with 36mp which still has less area for area than the D7100.
 
kestral said:
I have a D3s and D7100 and as far as I am concerned the D7100 24mp crop sensor is far better than the 12mp D3s for birds the difference is head and shoulders.The only FF camera for birds is the D800 with 36mp which still has less area for area than the D7100.
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Are you saying that the AF on a D800 and D7100 is as good as a D3s?
 
what I indicated was that "I need a better low light body to use on certain occasions so that I can maintain a high shutter speed and keep the noise down"

to use in addition to the D7100 in situations were the light was poor and to get a good (cropped) shot with the D7100 would introduce a lot of noise
 
BillN_33 said:
what I indicated was that "I need a better low light body to use on certain occasions so that I can maintain a high shutter speed and keep the noise down"

to use in addition to the D7100 in situations were the light was poor and to get a good (cropped) shot with the D7100 would introduce a lot of noise
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But if you're cropping with the D7100, surely you'll be cropping massively with a D3 or D4? In DX crop mode the D3 has around 5 megapixels and the D4 has around 7 megapixels. That's not a lot to be starting with before you crop.

Also, here's a thought. The D3/D4 obviously have superior low-light capability, but that's when judged at the level of individual pixels. If you were to take a 24MP D7100 image and resize it down to 5-7MP, the resizing will get rid of a lot of noise. (Because noise is random and resizing is an averaging process.) How much of the D3/D4's advantage would that erode? I'm guessing quite a lot.
 
Oh dear, theres a lot of gash being talked here by some people who obviously haven't used some of these cameras out in the field.
 
kestral said:
It depends what you mean by good.
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I thought it was a fairly simplistic question, I don`t know how to make it any easier, but i`ll try again.

Do you honestly think that the AF system on a D800 or D7100 is as good as a D3S, in real world scenarios?
 
fracster said:
I thought it was a fairly simplistic question, I don`t know how to make it any easier, but i`ll try again.

Do you honestly think that the AF system on a D800 or D7100 is as good as a D3S, in real world scenarios?
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I suppose that you could also add at what fvalue, with what lens and in what AF mode.

The only way it can be sorted, (my problem, that is), is by a comparison of a cropped bird image taken in low light, (as some wooded daylight conditions are - even in the British spring/summer), at say ISO 2500 up to ISO 5000 at various f values, (f2.8 to f8)……looking at the noise and the sharpness of the image ………. my feeling was that the image taken with a D4S at ISO 5000+ and at f2.8 to f7 would be sharper and more usable than that produced by the D7100 at the same settings…… and the D4S would AF better at a smaller fvalues (and) maybe the same could be said of the D3 and D3S

OK - don't say it - I can get a flash - and a "pack" mule to carry all the stuff I'm beginning to think I need.
 
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BillN_33 said:
My main interest is Bird photography ……… but also any general stuff, (but I have an M8).

I have a D300, a D7100 and a Nikon 300mm f4m just acquired a 300mm f2.8VR and have a 70 200mm f2.8VR plus a 50mm and lots of good old Nikon F glass
Click to expand...

Just bear in mind that upgrading to any of those cameras will also be going from DX to FX, and currently your 300mm lens is 450 equivalent, and your 200 is 300 equivalent. The minute you upgrade, all your lenses are 1.5x shorter than they appear to be. I'm sure you know this, but my point is...




BillN_33 said:
………..a lot of bird shots are "crops"
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So a lot of your shots are cropped already, so you will need to crop more, and you'll be doing so on a lower resolution image to start with.[/quote]


Something to think about. I know others have mentioned this, but as it's starting to descend into a D3/4 vs D800 fight, I'll put this here again. I genuinely think that losing 1.5x magnification, AND losing resolution will do more harm to your images than good.


The D800s AF is incredibly good, but he's already said he doesn't want the file size. However, I may be able to add something here, as the owner of a D610 and a D800E. The D610's file size is identical to the D7100, and I notice no difference in processing the D610 files than I do the D800's.

The D800 seems a logical choice here if you think about it. It offers great AF, but also offers the ability to work as a 15MP DX camera when you need to crop.


I don't know why anyone is comparing the D3s's AF to the D800s. The D3s has better AF.... it just does. However... the D800's is pretty damned good. More than enough for bird's in flight, and certainly enough for birds sat in trees etc.


Logic would dictate the D800 is the best choice here, as the D3, D3s or D4s will probably have the net affect of reducing the quality of your shots unless you start investing in new lenses or high quality tele-converters, because you'll be cropping more than you are doing now, with a camera that's already lower in resolution to begin with. I'm assuming that's NOT what you want as an outcome? :) People are saying that the high ISO noise is better than the D800 with the D4s, and it is, but by a surprisingly small amount until you go past 12800. (don't make me start putting comparative images up again :)).


If you don't need the continuous shot speed or large buffer of the D cameras that is... because then you have no choice, as the D800 sucks in that department.

D800 = solid AF.. more than enough. Better ability to crop without sacrificing as much quality.
D4s = Faster continuous shooting, larger buffer, better AF, and better high ISO noise performance.

Take your pick based on those and you'll probably end up with the right camera.
 
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Thanks - I suppose a solution is to get a new D800E for £2k, an after market grip of under a £100 and update my iMac 2.66 GHz to the "latest" for £2k, and sell my existing iMac for £500

(I do use the in camera x 1.3 crop of the D7100 but I suppose that that is a digital not an optical crop anyway)
 
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Well.. no, you don't have to get a grip at all if you don't want. I just bought a D800E from Panamoz for £1595, and you won't have to update your Mac at all. If you can cope with the files from your D7100 now, then it will cope with the D800 files fine I should imagine.
 
Just to add to Davids post. The D800 is generally sound, though I find the AF suffers in poor light,the D3 S excels here.

Saying that, the D800 is a two in one camera, it shoots FX and shoots high res in DX mode. It gives you an FX and a decent DX camera in the one body. Something that you might not be aware of Bill.
 
ST4 said:
Plus some more storage too, the files are bigger. D800 14bit compressed raw is 40mb, D610 around 27mb
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I know, I know, that's why I said initially I do not want a D800
 
BillN_33 said:
I know, I know, that's why I said initially I do not want a D800
Click to expand...


Have you actually tried to work with a D800 RAW file to see if your fears are valid?
 
Pookeyhead said:
Well.. no, you don't have to get a grip at all if you don't want. I just bought a D800E from Panamoz for £1595, and you won't have to update your Mac at all. If you can cope with the files from your D7100 now, then it will cope with the D800 files fine I should imagine.
Click to expand...

Since I "upgraded" from the D300 to the D7100 my iMac and MBP are beginning to "suffer" - certainly speed wise - I'm counting the seconds now when processing the files in LR4.4

(to all you Canon shooters - I don't want a Canon, is it the 5d Mk lll or something)
 
I've got 16gb in a Mac Pro (2.7 Quad core Xeon thing) and 1tb, use a D610 and D800. Its fine but reckon 32gb will make it lightning fast and I've got a 3tb external drive. 100% view can take a sec to load on both 610 on 800 files
 
The solution is clearly:
D800E
Nikon 500mm f4
New mega spec iMac
Loads of external storage

(I have the Nikon TC- 20E lll and the TC-14E ll)

I'll just tell my wife!!
 
BillN_33 said:
The solution is clearly:
D800E
Nikon 500mm f4
New mega spec iMac
Loads of external storage

(I have the Nikon TC- 20E lll and the TC-14E ll)

I'll just tell my wife!!
Click to expand...
Problem solved................:D

Just add a D3S and you are in clover.
 
Incidentally, I used the D800E on a commercial job recently. It was in low light, in very horrific working conditions that wouldn't really allow using long lenses due to the space and hazard risks of the places I had to shoot from. This is at ISO3200, and then cropped in WAY more than a DX crop would give.

i1iaSFL.jpg


It's an incredibly capable camera. Don't sell it short in favour of the D4. It's only weaknesses are the large files, and the slow continuous shooting speed. If you can live with those, it's utterly superb.
 
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