Capture One pro black and white... not?

[ChrisR]

I have noticed recently that my black and white scans of my black and white film are not quite black and white. The scans are made by Vuescan Pro, and I need to take this part up with them. But, having imported them into C1Pro (23 16.2.6.7) and applied the Black and White preset, I find they are still not black and white. Before making this screen capture, I had hovered the cursor over the area just top left of the cottage's thatch, and you can see the RGB-L values (or however they are supposed to be labeled) are 164, 167, 163 and luminance 165. There is a distinct warm tone, which tends to come through even more in prints, unfortunately.

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[myotis]

I have noticed recently that my black and white scans of my black and white film are not quite black and white. The scans are made by Vuescan Pro, and I need to take this part up with them. But, having imported them into C1Pro (23 16.2.6.7) and applied the Black and White preset, I find they are still not black and white. Before making this screen capture, I had hovered the cursor over the area just top left of the cottage's thatch, and you can see the RGB-L values (or however they are supposed to be labeled) are 164, 167, 163 and luminance 165. There is a distinct warm tone, which tends to come through even more in prints, unfortunately.

Any ideas or suggestions?

If you get a better answer, you can ignore this, as I'm only going on a vague understanding of scanned images.But...

Is Vuescan assigning a colour space to the scans. Although I think there was a change in a "very" recent upgrade,because heard some chatter from people who work with scanned images, I don't think, until that upgrade, C1 worked properly with grey scale images

Actually, I've just googled it, and it seems the change came with 16.5.6.

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011868778-How-do-I-edit-images-scanned-in-grayscale

 

[droj]

Hi Chris, my C1 is only slightly later than yours. I'm not trying to be definitive because our knowledge & workflows are all different, so what follows is just a bit of a ramble ...

If I open an rgb image in c1, and in the colour adjustment panel click on 'enable black & white' - after that, with or without any further colour adjustments in that panel, hovering over any point in the image shows that its rg & b channels show exactly the same values.

I've always scanned in rgb then for a mono output done the above in partnership with curves adjustments (mostly, I admit, in Photoshop). And have printed without any colour cast.

In Photoshop or its equivalent, one could also, if felt to be necessary (or as an insurance), convert to greyscale to strip out any channel bias - then if needed as a printer requirement convert back to rgb.

That's enough waffle, I'll shut up ...

 

[ChrisR]

If you get a better answer, you can ignore this, as I'm only going on a vague understanding of scanned images.But...

Is Vuescan assigning a colour space to the scans. Although I think there was a change in a "very" recent upgrade,because heard some chatter from people who work with scanned images, I don't think, until that upgrade, C1 worked properly with grey scale images

Actually, I've just googled it, and it seems the change came with 16.5.6.

https://support.captureone.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011868778-How-do-I-edit-images-scanned-in-grayscale

In days of yore (when Aperture ruled), I used to scan to greyscale. Unfortunately when I moved to C1Pro I discovred that it would not edit greyscale images, so I changed them all to RGB using xnconvert. Since then I've scanned them using Vuescan Pro as black and white in RGB. It appears, Vuescan has a bug that's not quite producing proper black and white, but I need to do some investigation there, in case I have mad a mistake in my parameters. Because I reload saved settings, if I made such a mistake I would be replicating it each session! EDIT: Later investigation suggests Vuescan is producing proper black and white images in RGB space,

Your comment about greyscale now being supported is interesting. It was one of the most annoying gaps in moving to C1Pro. Greyscale images are smaller, and guaranteed to be... grey! I'd much prefer to revert to scanning to greyscale. I've stopped understanding C1Pro pricing, as I didn't see any need to upgrade, but this could cause me to jump to a new perpetual licence, if such a thing still exists... Eeeek, just checked, while I can get a 20% discount on the first year of an annual plan, to buy a perpetual licence for the current version is... £317! And that doesn't include any updates, AFAICS. Oh well, much more likely to stick with what I've got, or switch away entirely. OT for this thread, though.

My main concern at the moment is why C1Pro doesn't want to convert a coloured image (albeit only lightly toned) to black and white using the black and white tool. It does something, as I can see the shape of the RGB histogram changing slightly, but the 3 colour components don't align. More investigation needed on my part!

 

[droj]

to buy a perpetual licence for the current version is... £317!

Sometimes it would be on offer - with updates for the life of that version (which might be about a year). That's how I bought mine. Whether the offer point was black Friday or what, I can't remember. But I have a receipt ... ah - November 2023 - £149.

 

[myotis]

In days of yore (when Aperture ruled), I used to scan to greyscale. Unfortunately when I moved to C1Pro I discovred that it would not edit greyscale images, so I changed them all to RGB using xnconvert. Since then I've scanned them using Vuescan Pro as black and white in RGB. It appears, Vuescan has a bug that's not quite producing proper black and white, but I need to do some investigation there, in case I have mad a mistake in my parameters. Because I reload saved settings, if I made such a mistake I would be replicating it each session!

Your comment about greyscale now being supported is interesting. It was one of the most annoying gaps in moving to C1Pro. Greyscale images are smaller, and guaranteed to be... grey! I'd much prefer to revert to scanning to greyscale. I've stopped understanding C1Pro pricing, as I didn't see any need to upgrade, but this could cause me to jump to a new perpetual licence, if such a thing still exists... Eeeek, just checked, while I can get a 20% discount on the first year of an annual plan, to buy a perpetual licence for the current version is... £317! And that doesn't include any updates, AFAICS. Oh well, much more likely to stick with what I've got, or switch away entirely. OT for this thread, though.

My main concern at the moment is why C1Pro doesn't want to convert a coloured image (albeit only lightly toned) to black and white using the black and white tool. It does something, as I can see the shape of the RGB histogram changing slightly, but the 3 colour components don't align. More investigation needed on my part!

You could try using the colour balance wheels. They are at the end of the processing pipeline and override anything that comes before. Ie. it adds/removes colour to a black and white image.

The licensing is a bit complex now, and prices have just increased. I went for the subscription when they switched things around. But with the recent increase it's now close to £200 a year.

With the new perpetual license, you get "updates" (bug fixes) for 12 months, and upgrades (new features) within that 12 months unless there is a new version released. They have reverted to their original versioning numbers. so a change from 16.4.xx to 16.5.1 is considered a new version. But for the full 12 months you continue to get bug fixes for 16.4.xx, you just don't get any of the new features released with 16.5.1.

 

[ChrisR]

Hi Chris, my C1 is only slightly later than yours. I'm not trying to be definitive because our knowledge & workflows are all different, so what follows is just a bit of a ramble ...

If I open an rgb image in c1, and in the colour adjustment panel click on 'enable black & white' - after that, with or without any further colour adjustments in that panel, hovering over any point in the image shows that its rg & b channels show exactly the same values.

I've always scanned in rgb then for a mono output done the above in partnership with curves adjustments (mostly, I admit, in Photoshop). And have printed without any colour cast.

In Photoshop or its equivalent, one could also, if felt to be necessary (or as an insurance), convert to greyscale to strip out any channel bias - then if needed as a printer requirement convert back to rgb.

That's enough waffle, I'll shut up ...

What you have described is what I would have expected, but not what is happening for me! What version have you got?

 

[ChrisR]

OK I'm pretty sure it's my version of C1Pro that's the problem. I opened the scanned image above in Affinity Photo 2, and using the colour picker I am unable to find any point where the R, G and B values differ.

Going back to C1Pro, I reset all adjustments, and histogram is still showing colour channel differences, though less pronounced. The worst part appears to be at around luminance 50-60. The right hand fence post at front left above shows values of (eg) 53, 47, 48 and luminance 49. It still looks visually pretty neutral though. Adding the normal simple adjustments I do makes the non-grey cast significantly more pronounced.

 

[droj]

Mine is 16.3.8.2038 ...

 

[myotis]

What you have described is what I would have expected, but not what is happening for me! What version have you got?

I have whatever the most recent version is, but I've used the colour balance wheels, since they first became available, to tone images converted to black and white by C1.

 

[ChrisR]

You could try using the colour balance wheels. They are at the end of the processing pipeline and override anything that comes before. Ie. it adds/removes colour to a black and white image.

I am completely unskilled at colour editing, way out of my comfort zone!

The licensing is a bit complex now, and prices have just increased. I went for the subscription when they switched things around. But with the recent increase it's now close to £200 a year.

With the new perpetual license, you get "updates" (bug fixes) for 12 months, and upgrades (new features) within that 12 months unless there is a new version released. They have reverted to their original versioning numbers. so a change from 16.4.xx to 16.5.1 is considered a new version. But for the full 12 months you continue to get bug fixes for 16.4.xx, you just don't get any of the new features released with 16.5.1.

OK, that's a bit better than I thought. But 16.5.xx has been around for a while, and I thought I saw a suggestion that a new version might be coming soon, so maybe I'd better wait.

If I want to switch to a different tool, I've got a problem (apart from the massive headache and re-learning in doing the conversion). I can either just port across my originals, and forget any adjustments, including dust/spot/healing (not a good idea given the amount of work that goes into those), or I can export adjusted versions from C1Pro with these colour issues baked in!

Wondering if I could move to a monthly subscription for a couple of months, use it to do the exports, then cancel... Probably easier to just bite the upgrade bullet!

 

[droj]

Technology is a juggernaut, & economies have to grow ceaselessly, they say ... we are but fish trapped in a pond, are we not?

 

[myotis]

I am completely unskilled at colour editing, way out of my comfort zone!

I rather like warm toned black and white images, not as distinct as sepia tones, but warmer than the often cool tones that often come with black and white prints. Although, you can use the split toning controls in C1, the colour balance wheels give more control.

I wonder if Vuescan is incorrectly identifying the colour space?

For example, I use DXO for noise reduction by round tripping from C1.

Normally, when I round trip, the colour in the original file and in the DXO created DNG are identical (viewing both in C1). Twice, after DXO updates, the colours in the imported DNGs were off, and DXO issued bug fixes, which fixed the colour discrepancies in C1.

OK, that's a bit better than I thought. But 16.5.xx has been around for a while, and I thought I saw a suggestion that a new version might be coming soon, so maybe I'd better wait.

If I want to switch to a different tool, I've got a problem (apart from the massive headache and re-learning in doing the conversion). I can either just port across my originals, and forget any adjustments, including dust/spot/healing (not a good idea given the amount of work that goes into those), or I can export adjusted versions from C1Pro with these colour issues baked in!

Wondering if I could move to a monthly subscription for a couple of months, use it to do the exports, then cancel... Probably easier to just bite the upgrade bullet!

You still occasionally find C1 perpetual licenses at a discount.

I'm not sure of your workflow, but if you don't have the problem with Affinity Photo, could you open in AP, and then export as a TIFF (or even DNG) with an assigned colour space.

 

[ChrisR]

So, as noted above, I went to the folder in my Master Files, the exact folder that was imported into C1Pro. I opened the (Jpeg) file above in Affinity Photo, which says it is in sRGB IEC61966-2.1. Select Colour Picker, and I cannot find any point which is not grey (R=G=B). The same file has been imported into C1Pro, which says the colour space is sRBG IEC-61966-2.1. The top left (adjusted) histogram shows different curves for R, G and B, and it's easy to find spots with different values, as mentioned above.

At this point I'm pretty sure that Vuescan is ruled out as the cause of my problem, particularly as the same behaviour happens for a file scanned in 2013 using SilverFast SE 6. I don't know what the heck is going on, but it seems like C1Pro in this version is at fault. Possibly something's going wrong on import, certainly the Black and White control is not doing its job. I have a recently developed film ready for scanning, when that's imported I need to remember to set C1Pro to make no adjustments on import. So far I have asked it to remove the adjustments made, which ought to have the same effect, I but need to be sure.

Of course, no-one at Capture One would be interested, as it's an old version.

These effects are relatively minor, and I've not really noticed the effect over the past year or two, o maybe it's no big deal. But I have been struggling trying to get neutral black and white prints. I used to put that down to my cheap 12-year-old printer, but I recently bought an ET-8550, and I still struggle to get a neutral print, despite following all the best advice I can get. It will be interesting to try print an un-adjusted image from C1Pro and compare it with a print from Affinity Photo!

 

[myotis]

So, as noted above, I went to the folder in my Master Files, the exact folder that was imported into C1Pro. I opened the (Jpeg) file above in Affinity Photo, which says it is in sRGB IEC61966-2.1. Select Colour Picker, and I cannot find any point which is not grey (R=G=B). The same file has been imported into C1Pro, which says the colour space is sRBG IEC-61966-2.1. The top left (adjusted) histogram shows different curves for R, G and B, and it's easy to find spots with different values, as mentioned above.

At this point I'm pretty sure that Vuescan is ruled out as the cause of my problem, particularly as the same behaviour happens for a file scanned in 2013 using SilverFast SE 6. I don't know what the heck is going on, but it seems like C1Pro in this version is at fault. Possibly something's going wrong on import, certainly the Black and White control is not doing its job. I have a recently developed film ready for scanning, when that's imported I need to remember to set C1Pro to make no adjustments on import. So far I have asked it to remove the adjustments made, which ought to have the same effect, I but need to be sure.

Of course, no-one at Capture One would be interested, as it's an old version.

These effects are relatively minor, and I've not really noticed the effect over the past year or two, o maybe it's no big deal. But I have been struggling trying to get neutral black and white prints. I used to put that down to my cheap 12-year-old printer, but I recently bought an ET-8550, and I still struggle to get a neutral print, despite following all the best advice I can get. It will be interesting to try print an un-adjusted image from C1Pro and compare it with a print from Affinity Photo!

With a scan of a black and white negative, I wouldn't expect the Black and White controls to work, as they are adjusting the underlying colour, and the only colour you seem to have is some sort of base colour cast..

Have you tried scanning as a TIFF (where the colour space isn't locked in, the way it is with a JPEG) or/and specifying an Adobe colour space. Though it does seem it's C1 that is the issue. With my DXO issue, DXO was tagging the files as being in an Adobe colour space, but wasn't saving them in an Adobe colour space.

Do you have "custom" paper profiles ? My limited experience is that the manufacturers paper profiles don't work very well when printing Black and White. However, with the ET8550 you can use the Epson Print software, which is meant to work well with black and white.

Finally, are you aware of this:

Analogue Toolbox for Capture One - Curious Photography by Michael Wilmes

Analogue Toolbox for Capture One. Digitzing (color) negatives with the most advanced RAW editing suite. A film photographers swiss army knife for digitization. A community project.

michael-wilmes.format.com