Canon to Nikon D300 upgrade questions

desantnik

desantnik

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Looks like I am about to ditch the Canon in favour of a D300.

Have done some eval testing of it and am happy, but have some questions which I can't seem to find the answers to.

Initially, two questions, but maybe some more later...

#1 What is the minimum aperture size the D300 will autofocus at? Canon are quite open about the performance of their focus points (f5.6 on anything but a 1 series body). Are all the 51 focus points rated the same?

#2 Some advice about colour... I am used to the 30D's "standard" jpeg settings giving me very rich colours. My eval of the D300 showed me that "standard" seemed to be rather washed out, whilst "vivid" was still a bit wishy washy but with some things ridiculously over saturated. There are some custom settings, with values you can set, I didn't get a chance to muck around with these... Does anyone a) understand what I am getting at and b) have any suggestions for some suitable "Canon style" custom settings?

Capture NX allows for this sort of adjustment for raw, but I'd sooner shoot in jpeg if I can...

Failing that, I'll just have to get used to that Nikon look n feel for the colour - the other things on the D300 far outweigh this "problem" for me anyway...

Thanks in advance!

PS Am not interested in you telling me how good/bad my upgrade decision is, I've made my mind up after some serious eval time!
 
I can only 1/2 answer point #1 and only for a D200. Mine will AF with a Sigma 170-500 and a 1.5x teleconverter fitted. The lens and telecon may not be reporting that the maximum aperture is so small but the camera seems to cope quite well!

ftp://ftp.nikon-euro.com/Manuals/3Chho8ML764/D300_en.pdf
should get you a copy of the D300 user manual which may tell you more.
 
I've got and read the D300 manual and couldn't seem to find the answers to my questions...

When I was trying the D300 out, I was using a Nikon 300 F4 with 1.7x TC, which should be 1.5 stops and it was AF'ing just fine, so I guess it will do more than just f5.6... but what is the max?
 
Hi!
There is a notable difference in the way both systems handle colours, I haven't quite ditched my Canon set up for Nikon, but I have recently taken on two Nikon bodies plus lenses.

Personally I only experiment with JPEG now and again, the colour handling with Nikon's picture control settings can be tweaked to have a little more saturation but I agree, sometimes it appears washed out and other times it's OTT.

I would advise to shoot in RAW and experiment with NX2's picture controls afterward, a D300 should come with a 60 day trial version so you can find out which methods suit your requirements.
With NX2, you basically have the same options available in camera (providing you enable them) but during editing too - so nothing ventured, nothing gained and nothing lost.

If the D300 has 'Active D Lighting' then you will need NX2 just to see the difference it can make when shooting in RAW, any other editing software won't read the side car file that accompanies the NEF, so, just the plain RAW will be displayed. This goes with the picture controls too. If you shoot in JPEG however all the in camera's settings are applied to the JPEG.

I always shoot RAW so I can have as much control as possible in post. I do have many mates who insist on shooting JPEG and they get the results they are after but when they balls something up, it's much more difficult to perform salvage operations.

Both my Nikon bodies have very reliable AF with F/1.4 on a 50mm, f/2.8 on a 24-70 and f/2.8 on an 80-200 also, these are the only lenses I have used at this point. Although I'm not sure I entirely understand your meaning so apologies if I'm flying off the track.
There is IMO, a slight difference in AF speed in low light in comparision with Canon AF. The Nikons being fractions slower, I could be being super fussy though.

T.
 
Thanks Tomas,

I have played around briefly in Capture NX with some NEF files mucking around with the settings which are replicated in the JPG setup. Can't seem to find anything similar to Canon colours in my testing, hence I asked if anyone had the magic formula or even had ever asked the same question...

On the AF and minimum aperture size for it to work... what I mean is that if I take say, a F4 lens and stick a 2x TC on it dropping two stops to an effective f8, will it still AF? The 30D will certainly not...
 
Think this should answer your AF question

I have used my D300 and 300mm f4 AF-S + 1.7x TC and it focuses fine... Sure it's a little slower and in low-light it will hunt, but it's not bad when the light is decent and can be very good when the light is good. I have never shot Canon, but from what I have read, the firmware will not allow the camera to even attempt AF at anything smaller than f5.6 (unless of couse it's a 1D series body). Nikon firmware does not prevent AF and the camera will AF if possible. I have heard from plenty of Nikon shooters that the D200 and D300 will AF when a 2x TC is on a f4 300, 500, or 600 lens.
Click to expand...

https://www.naturescapes.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=118974

I currently have the 300 F4 and use a 1.4TC.

RE jpegs I can't help I've only used RAW since I got it.
 
desantnik said:
#1 What is the minimum aperture size the D300 will autofocus at? Canon are quite open about the performance of their focus points (f5.6 on anything but a 1 series body). Are all the 51 focus points rated the same?
Click to expand...

I'm confused... Are you saying a Canon camera cannot autofocus below f5.6? My 400D and now 40D happily autofocus at f4 and f2.8... I don't understand, what am I missing? :shrug:
 
Minimum aperture = higher f stops... the bigger the number, the smaller the hole!
 
PSiFox,

Well, yes, I too have used the 300 f4 with the 1.7x (as I said above), obviously the lower the aperture size the more difficult to achieve AF... which means it will be slower and hunt... but my testing was shooting head on shots of DTM cars on a grotty day - which should be a fairly extreme test as those cars are damned fast by anyones standards! Worked a charm, didn't miss a shot...

Canon do indeed have a hard limit placed on the firmware. It would seem Nikon maybe do not... but so far I have only tested myself or heard others test to f8.

Mind you, f8 is probably about as poor as I would try anyway :D
 
yup below F5.6 would be f8
 
desantnik said:
PSiFox,

Well, yes, I too have used the 300 f4 with the 1.7x (as I said above), obviously the lower the aperture size the more difficult to achieve AF... which means it will be slower and hunt... but my testing was shooting head on shots of DTM cars on a grotty day - which should be a fairly extreme test as those cars are damned fast by anyones standards! Worked a charm, didn't miss a shot...

Canon do indeed have a hard limit placed on the firmware. It would seem Nikon maybe do not... but so far I have only tested myself or heard others test to f8.

Mind you, f8 is probably about as poor as I would try anyway :D
Click to expand...

Ah DTM I remember them up at Donington a good few years ago.

As Rescue crew we went for a wander round the pit garages to learn about the cars (for cutting purposes)

When asking the engineers how we would neatly remove the computers from the passenger footwell it was nice to be told "The driver is your concern, just rip them out and chuck them to one side" (not the driver)

Sorry bit OT
 
neo2810 said:
I don't understand, what am I missing? :shrug:
Click to expand...


I have to keep remembering that aperture is a ratio. you are not the only one!
 
1) f/5.6

2) Do a Google for D300 colour profiles, there are a few kicking about, incuding a couple from Nikon and one from Uncle Ken.....
 
Hmmmm f5.6 are you sure? The 300 F4 with 1.7x worked just fine though as I said further up???

Thanks for the other tip - I shall go a googling :D
 
Been here before, and I still don't understand it.
Canon camera's refuses to attempt to af with an aperture smaller than f/5.6...eh...:thinking:

I'm definitely missing something vital...:suspect:
 
Ahhhhh its called "picture control" not "colour profile" :D

Found it now... can see how you can stick a couple more in for custom ones, but can't find anything which suggests one for "Canon stylee"
 
joxby said:
Been here before, and I still don't understand it.
Canon camera's refuses to attempt to af with an aperture smaller than f/5.6...eh...:thinking:

I'm definitely missing something vital...:suspect:
Click to expand...

No, that thread does explain the "Canon minimum aperture AF *feature*"

I am used to that, I was just wondering if Nikon have a similar thing... and it appears they don't.

Quite why Canon do what they do, who knows! Probably so they can say that their AF system always works if you can get a picture out of it!
 
:bonk: I read it again and the information was processed and accepted.

All I can say is a D200 af's an 80-200f/2.8 with 2 x2 poopy teleconverters on it, ok its a bit hunty, but with decent light and a contrasty af point, it continues to af.
God knows what the effective app is on that junk.
The pics where absolute crap btw...:lol:
 
Joe T said:
Possibly to help them sell more 1-series bodies!
Click to expand...

And yet a great big pile of stacked TC's isn't the kind of thing a pro body user would want to do... well, not in motorsport anyway!
 
desantnik said:
Minimum aperture = higher f stops... the bigger the number, the smaller the hole!
Click to expand...

Yes, that bit I misunderstood, thought you were referring to the f-number, rather than the aperture.
And I now get it, it's the minimum aperture of the lens, not the selected aperture for the shot. And I've never used a TC but I assume it raises the min aperture of a lens due to the focal plane being distorted...

Interesting.... very interesting :thumbs:
 
desantnik said:
I've got and read the D300 manual and couldn't seem to find the answers to my questions...

When I was trying the D300 out, I was using a Nikon 300 F4 with 1.7x TC, which should be 1.5 stops and it was AF'ing just fine, so I guess it will do more than just f5.6... but what is the max?
Click to expand...


Have not read the whole thread, but, I have a D300,300 F4 and the 1.7 Nikon TC, it registers as F6.7.
 
Actually, its the maximum aperture of the lens that the autofocus uses - opens it all the way up so the camera can see as much light as possible to focus.

As to why a TC decreases the aperture, as far as I know its not because the actual aperture becomes smaller, its just that a big pile of extra glass just reduces the amount of light getting through to the body. So say a 1.4x TC stops 1 stop of light, the camera knows it has a 1.4x on it and automatically calculates with one stop less...

Which is how you can cheat (on a Canon) by taping up the connectors on a TC so the camera doesn't know about the TC... so it will still try and focus despite being over f5.6when you have stacked a 1.4x and a 2x on a F4 lens :D
 
fracster said:
Have not read the whole thread, but, I have a D300,300 F4 and the 1.7 Nikon TC, it registers as F6.7.
Click to expand...

Yes, 1.5 stops for a Nikon 1.7x.... which proves its not got the hard f5.6 Canon xxxD/xxD AF limit
 
Which bears out what i posted in post 6:)
 
Ok, QUESTION #1 is now done!!!

So can anyone give me a "picture control" that will give me Canon style colours!
 
I'm a bit tired now but you can download some optional picture controls for the D300 in addition to the standard, neural and vivid. Try a google
D2xMode1
D2xMode2
D2xMode3


From Thom Hogan

For JPEG and TIFF shooters, there's a new Picture Control system that's used to change image parameters (sharpening, contrast, gamma [which everyone has taken to calling Brightness lately], hue, and saturation). The camera comes with three presets (none of which are very well chosen) and Nikon has provided downloadable options to mimic the NikonD2X Color Mode defaults (a better starting choice). You can also roll your own by varying the ones you're given, though to really take this to heart you need Camera Control Pro so that you can create custom tone curves, as well. I'll give you a couple of clues: the color LCD brightness is set too high to correctly evaluate images, so a lot of you are setting Picture Controls and getting upset when they don't look right on the LCD, especially if you've also set AdobeRGB (the camera's display is sRGB at best). This new facility is a little trickier than the old Image Optimization choices. Nikon's choices, as I noted, aren't optimal--they produce overly bright, contrasty, color that tends towards saturated rather than satisfying colors. Couple this with Active D-Lighting, and you get a very faux look, not nearly as good as the camera can produce with lots of tweaking. Fortunately, I think we'll all figure it out fast enough, and there's enough flexibility in the system to satisfy most people. However, note that Nikon kept at least one trick to themselves: we can't create new starting points, only modify existing ones. The D2XMODE downloads are new starting points, not modifications of existing ones already in the camera. So let's all lobby Nikon to allow us to create our own starting points in Camera Control Pro (after all, we're now paying twice as much for that software, we should be getting something new and useful).
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Psi, I did find that stuff like that, but not that explanation - which does help!

Interesting words in there....

When I get my D300 I'll give those a crack.

Thanks to everyone who's helped - this has been a really helpful thread!
 
Good luck Darksider:)
 
desantnik said:
Ok, QUESTION #1 is now done!!!

So can anyone give me a "picture control" that will give me Canon style colours!
Click to expand...


No


Ever seen that program about fussy eaters, with a bit of psychotherapy, a delve into you're childhood to find out the trigger for Nikon colour aversion, some shouting a few tears and you should soon be on the road to a normal life, in Nikon Technicolour
 
desantnik said:
Ahhhhh its called "picture control" not "colour profile" :D

Found it now... can see how you can stick a couple more in for custom ones, but can't find anything which suggests one for "Canon stylee"
Click to expand...

:bonk: yeah, picture controls, that's the ones :lol:.

Why would you want a picture control that simulates wonky af anyway? :naughty: :exit:
 
Well, after spending a lot of time and effort evaluating two possible choices for a better motorsport camera than what I have currently I was left with quite a few pros and cons for both manufacturers top end crop sensor bodies...

The Nikon colours are definitely not as good "out the box" for jpg's but I knew it had the ability (like the recent Canons) for this to be changed.... hence the thread and from the intel gathered on this thread it seems many articles have thought along the same lines whilst not actually saying that Canon maybe are better in this respect ;-)
 
desantnik said:
When I get my D300 I'll give those a crack.
Click to expand...

You can get the same picture controls for CaptureNX and try it out on the RAW files I gave you. Might give you an idea of what to expect now.
tbh you should be able to tweak it enough in camera to get the look you are after.

I've tried them all and for now won't use anything other than neutral. The others just seem to remove a lot of detail in favour of saturation and contrast. Those are things I'd add near the end of PP, not at the conversion stage.
 
Cheers mate!

I shall go see if I can find them for Capture NX (because that is how I am experimenting, with a couple of Gribbsy's raws from the MX shoot in the Netherlands we did) :D
 
Ok, dragging this one back up again because I've had my D300 for a few weeks...

Anyone got any good suggestions for a workable Picture Control?

So far my observations are:

Vivid - lots of colour.... a bit *too* much colour really (even for me). Just goes bonkers on the reds! I took a photo of a red Ferrari in a red floored pit garage on Saturday and it hurts my eyes! I thought I'd burst a blood vessel in my eyes... (see below)

Standard - colours are a bit more under control but the contrast is too errm contrasty. Lots of details lost.

Neutral - back under control on both fronts, but a little well, flat.

Had a look at some folks test shots of the D2X controls and they seem to be just as bad.

Before I start mucking around with this has anyone got any hard work they'd care to share? Good old Uncle Ken seems to like Vivid with the saturation turned UP! Now thats mad Ken!

Brace yourself, here is the Ferrari I mentioned:

red1.jpg


And here is the colour histogram in CS4.... crazy!

red2.jpg
 
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