Can boots/jessops ruin my negatives?

[mrjames]

Hi, I've recently acquired a tasty little Olympus 35rc to shoot film again, i'm currently typing up a report on my experiences of using the camera, using a rangefinder, and on shooting film again, so i'll post that up soon.

But my questions are that now I have 3 rolls of film to process, what the hell do I do with them. I certainly don't want to process them myself (they are colour), but i'm concerned about sending them away for a couple of reasons.
1- I don't know whether the camera leaks light, or if it's even capable of taking a picture, so I don't want to send them away to somewhere like Peak Imaging and spend a lot of money on 3 potentially unusable rolls, but there are some potentially good images on those rolls so I don't want to screw them up either.
2- I don't know if the meter is accurate, my girlfriends lightmeter (she's never used it) gives a different result but I think the vintage lightmeter might be way out of whack, so if the shots are under/over exposed can a lab compensate for that? Do they do this automatically, or is it something I have to ask for
3- On the first roll I was told on good authority that it was a 36 roll film, (but later found it to be a 24), I noticed it getting increasingly difficult to wind on until I was literally pushing the lever with all my force (I just figured it was old rusty camera syndrome) and after hitting 36 and rewinding I opened up to find tiny bits of film inside the camera, presumably where the continued winding had torn through the sprocket holes- is this likely to be recoverable, and if so will snappy snaps be able to process it or do I have to go to a pro lab?


I have heard horror stories about boots and jessops being incompetant and scratching negatives, but snappy snaps seems to be ok (expensive though) and i'd rather speak to an actual person and explain what I want and then discuss things with, I have heard about club 35 but I don't wan't to wait so long and i'd rather deal with a real person for these first rolls. I don't really want prints straight out of camera as I have a specific visual style I want all my photos to look like so nothing ever goes through my editing workflow as it was shot, so I was just going to get them processed and low res scanned so I can pick the ones I want and have them drum scanned at school (free use of hassleblad drum scanner is amazing) and then print them back out after a round of editing. I presume when I scan them I will be able to play around with the colour in photoshop, dodge and burn etc, but will the 'exposure' have to be set in the processing, or in photoshop after the scan- if the film comes back say a stop underexposed can I lighten it in photoshop or is that something you do when developing.

Sorry for the stupid questions, it's been 10 years since I shot film and even then I only ever got terrible results, i've been digital ever since but since I bought the 35rc as an introduction to a digital leica i've been hooked on having a camera in my pocket 24/7

 

[s162216]

It highly depends on the branch of any high street shop like snappy snaps, Boots, Jessops etc. Most are o.k and you'll get a nice set of negatives as the minilab does all the work and yes they will correct your negatives for exposure etc when scanning/printin (don't expect the best scans though as it depends on the person operating the minilab as to how much they know what their doing etc or if they just leave it on auto). They might not be too happy to process a film though if the perforations are damaged as it could cause problems with the minilab jamming etc.

If you want good prices (£6.95 dev and low res CD in P&P with freepost address) and guaranteed good quality processing and scans with fast turnaround (there and back in 3 - 4 days usually) and excellent customer service, then Club 35 is my preferred pro lab as I've never had a problem with them. You can write all your requirements on the order form and I've called them several times to speak about an order, their only too happy to help. As they use a dip and dunk system like most pro labs then having the perforations damaged shouldn't be any problem, ask them if your worried. Their much better value than Peak Imaging and easily equal in quality.

When you scan you've got a digital image, if you've underexposed it a stop then you can correct the exposure in PP, dodge, burn, turn the colours crazy whatever you like.

 

[mrjames]

If you want good prices (£6.95 dev and low res CD in P&P with freepost address) and guaranteed good quality processing and scans with fast turnaround (there and back in 3 - 4 days usually) and excellent customer service, then Club 35 is my preferred pro lab as I've never had a problem with them. You can write all your requirements on the order form and I've called them several times to speak about an order, their only too happy to help. As they use a dip and dunk system like most pro labs then having the perforations damaged shouldn't be any problem, ask them if your worried. Their much better value than Peak Imaging and easily equal in quality.

When you scan you've got a digital image, if you've underexposed it a stop then you can correct the exposure in PP, dodge, burn, turn the colours crazy whatever you like.

thanks, I guess i'll send them to club 35 then, good to hear that the perforations won't cause a problem

 

[tezmed]

jessops are capable of many things!!!! lol

 

[Jimmy_Lemon]

If I was in your situation I would pop over to Edinburgh and take the films into http://www.amimage.co.uk/ and get them to dev them and see what you have, then get any prints etc if they come out. Good prices and really good customer service. Edinburgh Gary recommended them to me and so I took my old Rollei up to the festival a few year back, didnt know if it still worked so did the above with A&M.

 

[mrjames]

jessops are capable of many things!!!! lol

really? I recently had some digital prints made there and not only were they incredibly expensive, they were also not as good as a pro lab, black and white images were blue toned and 1 in 10 images was way out of whack (like almost totally dark brown), still I paid as I was in a hurry- on the plus side the guy was so impressed with my shots he gave me a job shooting at his burlesque night...

If I was in your situation I would pop over to Edinburgh and take the films into http://www.amimage.co.uk/ and get them to dev them and see what you have, then get any prints etc if they come out. Good prices and really good customer service. Edinburgh Gary recommended them to me and so I took my old Rollei up to the festival a few year back, didnt know if it still worked so did the above with A&M.

thanks for pointing that place out to me, first place i've discovered that does chromira prints in house (in Scotland), same it's not really in central edinburgh and I don't drive so I can't really get there, shame as their prices are good too

 

[hunnymonster]

Its in Leith, not exactly a million miles away from Princes Street though and a pretty good bus service if you're unable to walk it (especially back up the hill).

Edit: I think the number 11 goes along the road that A&M are on.

 

[mrjames]

Its in Leith, not exactly a million miles away from Princes Street though and a pretty good bus service if you're unable to walk it (especially back up the hill).

Edit: I think the number 11 goes along the road that A&M are on.

you're right it's not far at all, but then the post office is only across the street (and no hills) so club 35 it is as i'm not planning a trip to edinburgh any time soon
also i've read that minilabs hate processing film with damaged perforations so i'm probably better sending it to somewhere that I know does dip and dunk

although it's good to know there's somewhere that does chromira printing in Scotland and they sound like nice guys so it would be nice to work more closely with my printer as it feels a bit lonely not having anyone to complain at when they don't match my softproof

 

[mrjames]

the thing I don't really understand is how the image looks at each stage of the processing, I mean like different films have different 'effects', portra is very unsaturated and slightly purple/cyan, and velvia is the opposite, but is that 'effect' something they can tweak in processing, or do you just get the image as it was shot, and how do they push/pull process if the shot is over/under exposed, does that happen during developing, in scanning or in photoshop?

I'm shooting with fujicolor which i've not really heard of as having anything unique, in fact from some images it just looks perfectly normal and doesn't really have that 'film look' at all, but if i'm shooting on say kodak portra, when they process the film do they try and neautralise any colour casts or do they process 'as is', basically what i'm saying is if I shoot portra will my shots come back like this http://www.rebophotography.com/blog/links/1116 or will the lab try and make everything look real, because I definitely wan't the film to look like film (an artists impression of the scene), not the flat digital representation you get with a portable scanning device (digital ), it takes a lot of tweaking to get my digital files to look pretty, as life is never really pretty enough to begin with, so I have to do a lot of colour tints which are derived from the way film looks- with film I think the shift in colour tone makes pictures inheritantly interesting

i'm actually a retoucher by profession so I have an hyper-perfectionist grasp on colour processing and colour management in the digital realm but I am literally clueless with film, and being so outside of the process feels like being an athlete but letting someone else run the race on your behalf, I really don't like it at all.

 

[excalibur2]

****I'm shooting with fujicolor which i've not really heard of as having anything unique, in fact from some images it just looks perfectly normal and doesn't really have that 'film look' at all****

Well James interesting questions and I can only answer in a small way by experience for negative film and also add more questions. But for me (for all the digitalizing) I can still see the difference MOST of the time from say cheap Kodak film from Poundland and e.g. Fuji Superia 200 or Reala. There is also differences in grain in choosing a film and my further questions would be:- if you have say Ferranicolor (or even a Chinese film) and Fuji film scanned on a Fuji frontier machine will the operator get the best out of each film....h'mm

 

[AJQS]

the thing I don't really understand is how the image looks at each stage of the processing, I mean like different films have different 'effects', portra is very unsaturated and slightly purple/cyan, and velvia is the opposite, but is that 'effect' something they can tweak in processing, or do you just get the image as it was shot, and how do they push/pull process if the shot is over/under exposed, does that happen during developing, in scanning or in photoshop?

I'm shooting with fujicolor which i've not really heard of as having anything unique, in fact from some images it just looks perfectly normal and doesn't really have that 'film look' at all, but if i'm shooting on say kodak portra, when they process the film do they try and neautralise any colour casts or do they process 'as is', basically what i'm saying is if I shoot portra will my shots come back like this http://www.rebophotography.com/blog/links/1116 or will the lab try and make everything look real, because I definitely wan't the film to look like film (an artists impression of the scene), not the flat digital representation you get with a portable scanning device (digital ), it takes a lot of tweaking to get my digital files to look pretty, as life is never really pretty enough to begin with, so I have to do a lot of colour tints which are derived from the way film looks- with film I think the shift in colour tone makes pictures inheritantly interesting

i'm actually a retoucher by profession so I have an hyper-perfectionist grasp on colour processing and colour management in the digital realm but I am literally clueless with film, and being so outside of the process feels like being an athlete but letting someone else run the race on your behalf, I really don't like it at all.

Your shots won't come out looking like that unless you have them developed by a really good lab witha really good scanner in their workflow. You'll have to do some work on them to get them looking that good. The scanner is the weak link in the film chain.

As for push pull processing they won't do it unless you ask for it specifically, and even then it'll apply to the whole roll. C41 can be overexposed a good few stops with no dev change anyway, so no need to worry there. I'm not sure if pushing to recover say one underexposed shot would stil lretain this property in the rest of the roll though I've never tried.

If you want a film to tax your colour processing skills get Ektar, a different colour for every frame with that stuff,unless you underexpose in which case it's blue all the way!

 

[robhooley167]

If you want a film to tax your colour processing skills get Ektar, a different colour for every frame with that stuff,unless you underexpose in which case it's blue all the way!

Or Yellow :bang: My velvia from Wales has a strong red cast which wasnt from the filters, it was near it's expiry so that could have contributed :nuts:

 

[mrjames]

As for push pull processing they won't do it unless you ask for it specifically, and even then it'll apply to the whole roll. C41 can be overexposed a good few stops with no dev change anyway, so no need to worry there. I'm not sure if pushing to recover say one underexposed shot would stil lretain this property in the rest of the roll though I've never tried.

thanks so much for the detailed answer,
the camera i'm using uses a battery that is no longer made, but the battery that will fit (and was supplied with the camera) uses a different voltage and apparently that will effect the accuracy of the meter, so if my camera's meter is underexposing or overexposing for every shot then i'll have to ask them to push/pull but I wouldn't know how much it would need to be changed by, could be 1/3 stop, could be 2 stops for all I know, I could compare it against a digital camera I suppose, although Alan you seem to suggest a few stops out won't be a problem with c41.


But I still feel like it's a massive risk to send off film that may not have been exposed properly, my main concern is can they only process it once, so do they have to get it bang on 0ev (correct exposure) the first time they process it?

Maybe it would be better to go down to edinburgh in the morning, have them dev it, look at the negs and decide what to do- if they process it and they come back as -2ev (too dark), am I screwed, or can they reprocess it to make it 0ev, or is that something they do in the scan (leaving me to under/overexpose to taste in photoshop), if it turns out the meter is out of whack will they be able to calculate how far off it was, so I can raise/lower the ASA to compensate for it?

I guess the process is more automated than I think, so for example say I put in a film that is -2ev, does the machine realise that it's -2ev and then adjust how long a film has to be developed for before they put it in the machine, or does the machine monitor the film while it's being processed and will pull it out the tank when it's done and it doesn't just sit in the chemicals for an arbitrary amount of time? Or am I overestimating the ability of the machine... do you have to know whether a film is over or underexposed before putting it in the chemicals, is this what a 'clip test' is for?


One more question
With digital say I go out shooting and tape over my LCD so I don't know what i'm getting, I go home and when I import a raw file I look at it and say "it's 2 stops over, or 2 stops under", so I bring up the exposure in post to 0ev and then adjust fill light/recovery to taste. But if I was shooting jpeg then i'd have a lot less room for error and I wouldn't be able to recover 2 stops underexposure, and the file would be trash. When I get my scanned files from film will they behave like a RAW file or will they behave like a JPEG, is there enough information in the file (assuming I drum scan the negatives at school)to play with the exposure (selective dodge and burn for example) or is that something that has to be done by hand in the dark room with filters and the like, Ansel Adams style.




I already paid about £100 for the camera, so now I don't want to send off 3 rolls, pay £20/30 and get nothing useful back, then buy more film to experiment with, realise the camera doesn't work at all and be out of pocket for £200, but I also don't want to pay tesco 99p and for them to destroy/not bring out the best in some potentially great shots, i'm too much of a control freak/perfectionist for film I think :bang:
I think as soon as I get the results back and I know how far I can push the files in post , I will know whether I wish to continue shooting film or not

 

[mrjames]

Basically i'd just like someone to explain the film process in comparison to digital process.

So i'll talk through how I understand the process (using 2 cameras, one producing a correct exposure and the other being too dark)

Digital:
1 (0ev)- capture raw image (sometimes with color checker passport if accurate colour is needed), balance exposure to 0ev.
1 (-2ev)- capture raw image (sometimes with color checker passport if accurate colour is needed), was an idiot and didn't realise image was underexposed.

2- import raw file into lightroom as DNG
2- import raw file into lightroom as DNG

3- set custom white balance/colour profile
exposure is correct
3- set custom white balance/colour profile
adjust exposure from -2ev to 0ev

4- export tiff to photoshop for selective dodge/burn, color shifting and retouching
4- export tiff to photoshop for selective dodge/burn, color shifting and retouching

5- import back to lightroom for cataloging, printing, exporting to client as high res jpeg
5- import back to lightroom for cataloging, printing, exporting to client as high res jpeg

both files look exactly the same (except file 2 has more noise from being push processed)

with film I see it as (probably completely wrong):

1 (0ev)- take image with working meter
1 (-2ev)- take image with broken meter

2- send 0ev film to lab
2- send -2ev film to lab

3- film goes in developing tank
3- film goes in developing tank

4- computer monitors film in tank and says "ok take the film out now"
4- computer monitors film in tank and says "film is underexposed and needs more time in developer"

OR computer puts both films in tank for the same amount of time and film 1 comes out 0ev and film 2 comes out -2ev

5- Scanner turns 0ev negatives into digital files at 0ev
5- scanner turns push processed 0ev negatives into digital files at 0ev

OR scanner turns film 2's -2ev negatives into digital files at -2ev
OR scanner turns film 2's -2ev negatives into digital files at 0ev

6- 0ev digital files from 0ev negative sent to me on CD
6- 0ev digital files from push processed -2ev negatives sent to me on CD

both files look the same (except for enhanced grain on push processed film)

OR 0ev digital files from 0ev negatives on CD, and -2ev digital files from -2ev negatives.

7- Import 0ev files into lightroom for white balance/color profile- resume digital workflow- export to photoshop for retouching etc
8- Import -2ev files into lightroom, adjust exposure to 0ev, adjust for white balance/color profile- resume digital workflow- export to photoshop for retouching etc

basically on digital when I press the shutter button, 0.0000000000001 seconds later I see an image on my screen and I know whether I can pack up or go home, with film during the 4 day turnaround between pressing the shutter and seeing the image, what the hell happens?

 

[RaglanSurf]

... with film during the 4 day turnaround between pressing the shutter and seeing the image, what the hell happens?

I'm sorry I can't begin to answer all your questions but in answer to your last question, you sit back and relax or drink beer/tea/whisky or go out and waste more film or fill out your tax return etc etc etc.

Honestly, the wait is part of the fun, embrace it

 

[s162216]

Unfortunetely theres no monitoring of the film for how long it needs to be in, the film stays in for the same amount of time for any C-41 (colour negative) or E-6 (transparency) film and it depends on the film and developer with B&W; this is unless you specify a push/pull (which applies to the entire roll) because you've exposed ISO 200 film at 800 for instance. If you want you correct the exposure, then its done in PP by either exposing the paper longer or increasing the exposure of the scan (like with digital depending on if your doing it the traditional or 'modern' scanner way.

Once the film is processed and fixed, you can't reprocess it like your suggesting above. You can under/over expose C-41 colour negative film by several stops and still get a usuable image, especially with films like Portra 400 or 160 where you can underexpose it 2 or 3 stops with normal processing and only get a slight increase in grain and contrast yet you can also overexpose it several stops as well (with the opposite effects), negative film has a lot of exposure lattitude (Ektar as mentioned above is a little bit of an exception as underexposing it more than a stop turns it blue but too much overexposure makes the colours even wilder but the shadows go blue). If your using a proper drum scanner then even more information is available because of the way a drum scanner works.

Its with E-6 slide films where you have to be bang on with the exposure as they usually only have about 1 or 1/2 a stop or so of lattitude at the most but are usually finer grained and higher resolution than negative film (although negative films have caught up in recent years as slide film use has dropped considerably and so has R&D into new E-6 films)

There is tons of information in a scan, its like a RAW file essentially (you can get a RAW right out the scanner if you want) but with even more information (true 16 bit if scanned in that) and it is essentially a digital image so you can apply digital techniques to it.

 

[TheBigYin]

Basically i'd just like someone to explain the film process in comparison to digital process.

(snip)

basically on digital when I press the shutter button, 0.0000000000001 seconds later I see an image on my screen and I know whether I can pack up or go home, with film during the 4 day turnaround between pressing the shutter and seeing the image, what the hell happens?

Why not just meter the shot correctly, get things right in camera, and not stress over all that stuff...

I thought that was what we did with film...

If you want instant feedback and all the post-production stuff, frankly, and this is probably a little controversial to say in F&C, but just stick to digital, that's what it's good at.

 

[freecom2]

If you want instant feedback and all the post-production stuff, frankly, and this is probably a little controversial to say in F&C, but just stick to digital, that's what it's good at.

I think it's a perfectly legitimate thing to say, and I'd like to hope that most of the other regulars here would think so as well. Of course digital has it's advantages, otherwise 95% of TP wouldn't be dedicated to it. However, post production has always been a part of photography full stop - dodging in Photoshop is the same basic principle as dodging a print, albeit a very different way of doing so. A lot of other techniques could count as post processing as well, long before Photoshop was ever a phrase in language!

But wanting instant feedback... film is probably not the best starting point for that. You can get fast feedback - I've had a roll of film drying within half an hour of shooting the last frame thanks to home black & white developing - but don't expect much faster then that, especially if a lab and the Royal Mail are involved

 

[TheBigYin]

I'm not arguing (far from it) that film should necessarily be SOOC and machine printed onto paper, far from it - i've done more than my fair share of time in the darkroom - indeed most of what I do now in CS5 is just a direct digital version of what I did in there.

The OP does seem to be worrying (imo slightly unduly) that he's going to make errors in metering that will necessitate a load of fannying around recovering detail. The simplest way around this is to stop worrying about it, meter correctly, and perhaps bracket your shots - film stock is (still relatively) cheap compared to staging a re-shoot - or indeed missing the shot completely. A +1,0,-1ev bracket group coupled with most neg. film stocks exposure lattitude usually copes with most situations. If it's extremely complicated lighting, buy a spot meter and learn how to use it :shrug: And if that doesn't appeal - stick to digital and chimp your shots.

Again - turning film around in under a hour is possible as you say, and I'm happy enough with films speed for a lot of stuff, though I will admit, if it's for "work" then I'll most likely shoot on digital (or at least shoot on digital as well as film) so I can KNOW i've got the job nailed before I leave. I had too many years BITD shooting on film and worrying about if I'd got it right when it meant food on the table/the rent getting paid to want to do that again. The more you shoot, and the better at your craft you get, the more confident you become - but it's not the same as looking at the shots on the laptop between setups and KNOWING it's right.

I Love shooting on film for my own stuff - but even things like the POTY competition on here, with time constraints and pressure to get the best shot I can, have me reaching for the 7D. When it's just for me, then I'd far rather shoot on film - and enjoy the challenge of getting it right (to the limits of my ability at least) in the camera - and them perfect the shot in PP as well

 

[freecom2]

Indeed, was mostly a case of a discussion on your point but I know that almost all of us have a film/digital workflow, and often do a bit of manipulation in both depending on circumstance.

Scanning onto a format like TIFF with a decent scanner can help a lot in recovering the details - and negative film is great for masking errors in metering as well, it gives you a lot of leeway (as already discussed).

Digital is the predominant professional format for those good reasons Mark, when it comes to food and rent even the strongest lover of film has to concede at some point IMO!

 

[TheBigYin]

digital has it's uses - i'd have hated to have done a couple of my shooting jobs on film - 800 different plumbing and electrical widgets (all no larger than a cricket ball) - all on a white background, shadowless, for use in a website/internal catalog/knowledgebase application. I set up my light-tent, 2 studio flash heads, and the 7d tethered to the laptop and shot straight into lightroom - one day, all the shots taken, pp'ed, resized to small, medium, large and thumbnails, uploaded into the computer system and done with. Wouldn't have fancied taking 23 rolls of 35mm into the minilab

I am however itching to get a chance to work on my next still life piece with the Bronica rather than in Dijikal - but I'm having problems sourcing the correct mirror and vase as props...