BXRi faults

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Deadlock

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hi,
This week I developed faults in two of my Bxri 500 heads. Just wondering if anyone had experienced similar or had any suggestions.

Head 1:
Modelling light turns itself on a few times a day for no reason.
Recycle times occasionally stretch to tens of seconds.
Failure to fire roughly 30 times a day.

Head 2:
When triggering lights via speed trigger, all other lights flash, but this one will make a snapping sound then 1/4 second later flash. This happens roughly 1 in 10 shots
There will be roughly 4 shots in a row where it flashes then another 4 where it does not. This repeats.

Cheers
 
I've been using Elinchrom for many years and never had a problem, but that's definitely a service job - contact The Flash Centre.

It's double-strange that two heads should show problems at the same time. Have they got wet at all? Been stored somewhere damp?
 
Hi Richard.
No storage oddities. No bashing/dropping events.

Head 1 has actually had this issue since purchase some years ago and the flash centre has been unable to resolve it.
30 shots out of 1000 taken from 9-5 is not too high a failure rate so I've not been too bothered, but I do wonder if it's right. As for the modelling light turning itself on.... Well I actually thought it was me pressing some weird combination of buttons on the trigger that set it off. But no, it happened the other day when the camera was on the floor and I was chatting to a client.
Head 2 is the next sequentially numbered head from a kit purchase and an entirely new issue.
 
Deadlock said:
Hi Richard.
No storage oddities. No bashing/dropping events.

Head 1 has actually had this issue since purchase some years ago and the flash centre has been unable to resolve it.
30 shots out of 1000 taken from 9-5 is not too high a failure rate so I've not been too bothered, but I do wonder if it's right. As for the modelling light turning itself on.... Well I actually thought it was me pressing some weird combination of buttons on the trigger that set it off. But no, it happened the other day when the camera was on the floor and I was chatting to a client.
Head 2 is the next sequentially numbered head from a kit purchase and an entirely new issue.
Click to expand...

You're too easy going DL! That's just unacceptable. Flash is generally very reliable and I would not be happy with anything less than 100.00% performance. Given Elinchrom's generally excellent rep, and TFC's for fixing things when they go wrong, I would be bending somebody's ear quite firmly. If they can't resolve the problems, they should replace. You have PM.
 
I'm surprised TFC couldn't help you as I know they're not the best on this sort of thing but modern heads are fairly modular and mass produced so I don't see why they shouldn't be able to at least locate the problem.

Failure to fire could be a tube wearing out but I'm guessing you've got a problem with one of the boards, just a guess but did you have any power supply issues where you've been using the heads?

Assuming they're out of warranty and TFC can't help you I'd recommend speaking with Luminary Lighting: http://www.luminarylighting.co.uk/
 
Thanks chaps. I'm out and about and iPad battery is almost dead. I'll have a look later at the service/repair history and contact the flash centre & see what they say.
Simon, the heads are mains powered and ive always connected them via surge protectors. I do go to clients sites so take what precautions I can.

Will keep you posted!

Cheers.
 
Ok so the flash centre seem a little busy with their stated turn around times. I'm flat out myself so may consider buying one or two lencarta heads so I'm not caught short if another head or two goes.

Lencarta elite pro 300

1- Colour temperature stability?
I like elinchom for this & have returned other brands who exhibited significant shifts.

2- Workload - suitable for 1000 shots from 9-5 with 45min lunch break and used in a cool room?

3- is there an adapter for these heads to fit my existing elinchom light modifiers?

4- colour temperature balance?
Would there be anything noticeable if using 2 brands of lights?

5 - more specifically, how does the Lencarta elite pro 300 rate compared to say a d-lite 4it or bxri500 head in terms of freezing motion?

6- anything else to consider in general before mixing lencarta & elinchrom brands?
 
Deadlock said:
Ok so the flash centre seem a little busy with their stated turn around times. I'm flat out myself so may consider buying one or two lencarta heads so I'm not caught short if another head or two goes.

Lencarta elite pro 300

1- Colour temperature stability?
I like elinchom for this & have returned other brands who exhibited significant shifts.

2- Workload - suitable for 1000 shots from 9-5 with 45min lunch break and used in a cool room?

3- is there an adapter for these heads to fit my existing elinchom light modifiers?

4- colour temperature balance?
Would there be anything noticeable if using 2 brands of lights?

5 - more specifically, how does the Lencarta elite pro 300 rate compared to say a d-lite 4it or bxri500 head in terms of freezing motion?

6- anything else to consider in general before mixing lencarta & elinchrom brands?
Click to expand...

If your Elinchroms have been subject to that much use over a few years, then it puts a rather different slant on things! You may have to throw yourself on TFC's mercy.

1) Most modern flash heads have good and stable colour, though they all get a bit warmer at lower powers - and the wider the power range, the warmer they get. Keep them all at roughly the same settings and you should be fine. There's often more difference between different modifiers, softboxes etc.

2) Garry Edwards is best placed to comment on workload.

3) Adapters are available, though they position the modifier further forward. No problem with softboxes.

4) See 1.

5) Flash durations is a can of worms. Probably the best you can do is take the t.5 time and multiply by three to get somewhere close to a real world shutter speed equivalents. That may not be very accurate, but at least you should be comparing like-for-like. Flash durations get longer at lower power.

6) Mixing brands is not a problem in terms of light, but working with mount adapters and incompatible radio triggers wouldn't suit me for long. I would probably buy another Elinchrom and get the old heads fixed one at a time.
 
HoppyUK said:
If your Elinchroms have been subject to that much use over a few years, then it puts a rather different slant on things! You may have to throw yourself on TFC's mercy.
Click to expand...

:agree:

Would it be worth considering a pack and head system instead of a set of monoblocks given that's fairly high volume?
 
I normally avoid replying to threads that involve competitor's products, but as you're asking specific questions about Lencarta products...
Nearly all of the specs for the ElitePro 2 are on our website under data sheet, including your colour temperature questions. I see that flash duration times aren't there though, and I will update the data sheet ASAP. We publish both t.1 and t.5 times, and our data is accurate.

S.fit > elinchrom and elinchrom > s.fit adapters are available and are possibly acceptable for when only sofboxes are used, but they act as a spacer that makes them impracticable for use with all other light shaping tools.
As for the ability of the ElitePro 2 to be used all day every day, we have a large number of customers who do that without difficulty, as do Elinchrom. But, if you need the closest thing there is to a guarantee that a unit will never break down, and if you don't want to buy extra flash heads for redundancy, then IMO the only make to go for is Bron.
simonbarker said:
:agree:

Would it be worth considering a pack and head system instead of a set of monoblocks given that's fairly high volume?
Click to expand...
Yes, this is another option, generator units (English) or pack and head units (American) are designed for very heavy use. Years ago I had a few of the Elinchrom Chic 2 generators, they did break down very occasionally but I always felt that I could rely on them, and of course I had redundancy too.
 
Thanks for the info chaps.
To clarify usage, I am giving a worst case scenario - which I've been shooting over the last week.
Simon, thanks, but the last I looked, those heads were really outwith my price range.
Richard - on these shoots, I do not have to worry about anyone else firing a flash so was planning on using the heads flash detection ability to know when to fire a flash. I was testing that today with another head, normally paired with an elinchrom receiver that I turned off, and it worked flawlessly.
Gary - firm believer in redundancy. I tend to carry 2 spare heads per shoot. So while 2 go off to the flash centre, I was looking to rotate out another 2 of the elinchrom heads and put in your lencarta heads.
I need to run a few more tests tomorrow, but if you could update your site with the flash durations, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks all.
 
HoppyUK said:
5) Flash durations is a can of worms. Probably the best you can do is take the t.5 time and multiply by three to get somewhere close to a real world shutter speed equivalents. That may not be very accurate, but at least you should be comparing like-for-like. Flash durations get longer at lower power.
Click to expand...
Very largely correct, but not always.
Not always because although the cheaper head tend to reduce power output by means of a potentiometer that reduces voltage (which also results in a slower burn = longer flash durations + lower colour temperature, better heads often reduce power primarily by switching out capacitors and by also using a potentiometer for the fine adjustments.
Deadlock said:
Thanks for the info chaps.
To clarify usage, I am giving a worst case scenario - which I've been shooting over the last week.
Simon, thanks, but the last I looked, those heads were really outwith my price range.
Richard - on these shoots, I do not have to worry about anyone else firing a flash so was planning on using the heads flash detection ability to know when to fire a flash. I was testing that today with another head, normally paired with an elinchrom receiver that I turned off, and it worked flawlessly.
Gary - firm believer in redundancy. I tend to carry 2 spare heads per shoot. So while 2 go off to the flash centre, I was looking to rotate out another 2 of the elinchrom heads and put in your lencarta heads.
I need to run a few more tests tomorrow, but if you could update your site with the flash durations, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks all.
Click to expand...

I haven't had time to update the website as yet, meanwhile, here are the figures for the ElitePro 300. Please note that these are t.1 times, which is the closest we can get to shutter speed equivalents, not the better-sounding but far less useful t.5 times.

@full power 1/950th
@half power 1/450th
@ quarter power 1/650th
@ minimum power (1/32nd) 1/720th
 
Thanks.

Usage. High Volume.
A few of you have mentioned this and its left me a bit puzzled.
Several years ago when I first started buying studio lights I did my research in the manufacturers documentation and specifications. This was never mentioned. If there was say, Flash A is suitable for 0-100 flashes a day and Flash B for 101-500 flashes a day, then that would be perfect. But there is nothing like that.

As an analogy it seems to me like I’ve purchased a honda civic only to find out when I’ve broken down on the motorway outside london, that I can’t do the planned London to Edinburgh trip as it can only go 50 miles a day. If I wanted to be able to drive up to Edinburgh for a weekend, then I should have bought a 5 series bmw which has a 500 mile daily limit.

Why can’t I be given the information in advance to help me make my purchase decision?
 
Deadlock said:
Why can’t I be given the information in advance to help me make my purchase decision?
Click to expand...

I would guess it opens up a can of worms, if your head fails (for whatever reason) before that lifetime is hit are you then owed a replacement?

What kind of usage pattern do you want to calculate it for? There's a world of difference between someone shooting at a moderate pace versus someone firing it like a machine gun but both methods are entirely valid depending on who's using the equipment.

No argument though it's odd how little information these companies provide.
 
I sympathise, but it's never going to happen - and if it did, I doubt whether the information would be helpful to you because many of the sources of that info simply can't be trusted.

I know that because I know a lot of players in the industry, and almost every time I get hold of a flash head from certain manufacturers and carry out technical tests on the claimed specs, I end up concluding that either I or they must have carried out the tests wrongly, or that either my or their testing equipment must be faulty...
 
Deadlock said:
Thanks.

Usage. High Volume.
A few of you have mentioned this and its left me a bit puzzled.
Several years ago when I first started buying studio lights I did my research in the manufacturers documentation and specifications. This was never mentioned. If there was say, Flash A is suitable for 0-100 flashes a day and Flash B for 101-500 flashes a day, then that would be perfect. But there is nothing like that.

As an analogy it seems to me like I’ve purchased a honda civic only to find out when I’ve broken down on the motorway outside london, that I can’t do the planned London to Edinburgh trip as it can only go 50 miles a day. If I wanted to be able to drive up to Edinburgh for a weekend, then I should have bought a 5 series bmw which has a 500 mile daily limit.

Why can’t I be given the information in advance to help me make my purchase decision?
Click to expand...
I sympathise, but...

It would happen with a car too, no one says that a Kia Picanto is unsuitable for 30,000 motorway miles a year, but reading between the lines, doing a test drive and speaking to a salesman or two would lead you to that conclusion.

I'm guessing if you rang the major dealers and manufacturers, read the specs, and some reviews you'd get a feel for what might be most suitable with flash too.
 
Simon - Good points. Too many worms whichever way you look at it and too little information.
Gary - Its a good point regarding testing. I swapped over one of my limping heads for a good one and the good one started failing and the limping one started working. It appears that when firing at its lowest power setting (2.3), it fires regularly. I was using 3.7 for my main light which is likely a little under half power and this is where the lights were failing.

I guess this will be another issue where it would be nice if some standards body were set up to offer consistency and guidelines. Ever thought of branching out Gary? ;)

Phil, I see what you are saying but I would like to eliminate the randomness in that you found good salespeople and I didn't. That you perhaps had experience to look for something between the lines that I didn't. I don't think it should be that way. As for the 30k miles, before failure, I don't think anyone would give you a car that long to test for it. ;)
 
Deadlock said:
...

Phil, I see what you are saying but I would like to eliminate the randomness in that you found good salespeople and I didn't. That you perhaps had experience to look for something between the lines that I didn't. I don't think it should be that way. As for the 30k miles, before failure, I don't think anyone would give you a car that long to test for it. ;)
Click to expand...
The problem isn't randomness though, it's a lack of information. Car tests are everywhere, walk into any pub and you can find anecdotal evidence about a particular car brand, there aren't so many studio flash 'experts', so research becomes harder to conduct.

At the risk of upsetting Garry, if I was looking for a studio head to run all day every day, I'd probably choose Bron or Profoto, just like I'd choose a large BMW or Audi if I was planning 40,000 motorway miles a year, I'd go for over-engineered rather than should be OK.
 
Phil V said:
At the risk of upsetting Garry, if I was looking for a studio head to run all day every day, I'd probably choose Bron or Profoto, just like I'd choose a large BMW or Audi if I was planning 40,000 motorway miles a year, I'd go for over-engineered rather than should be OK.
Click to expand...

Which would then lead to the question, is a D1 or Siros especially more reliable than alternative high end monoblocks?
 
Phil,

It's neither that simple nor that complicated. Car manufacturers are massive, lighting manufacturers are, by comparison, tiny. Car manufacturers are capable of producing their products to whatever standards they want to, they understand both the challenges and the solutions, and they know that if they make false claims or try to fiddle things, it will come back and bite them in the bum (which reminds me, I have a friend who has a new diesel Yeti, I must remember to offer him a tenner for it, cash, when I see him on Saturday :)

If you want something that's bulletproof in lighting, you have a choice of Bron or Bron. People sometimes lax lyrical about the old E series Bowens, but very old technology lights really didn't have much to go wrong, and performed very badly compared to modern lights anyway. And, just as much to the point, when people were shooting on medium and large format film they didn't work them nearly as hard either.
 
Sorry to hear that. I may try it myself if I get the chance.

Question.... Apparently I'm categorised as heavy use. Would you expect the fans be kicking in? I do not have the modelling light switched on for most shoots. The fan on one of the heads may come on perhaps once every 3-4 days of use. At which point I turn all the heads off and go for a 10 minute tea break. The fan wont kick in again that day.
 
Yes I would but it's determined by your usage pattern, the equipment and the environment.

For example I'm pretty sure the D-lite/BRX heads I've had were set to activate the fan at a lower temperature than a Pro head and that's not because they're more robust, it's simply a choice by the manufacturer.

As I've mentioned before there's a big difference in how you use the equipment, if you're firing off 500w + and doing it repeatedly in a short space of time that puts out a lot of heat, just put your hand over a head after 20+ shots in short order and you'll notice it easily enough. Then throw in a modifier which blocks the ventilation and you can see why it'll probably set off the fan (take into consideration the orientation too, a head pointing down with no ventilation has the heat rising back into the head).

Are you concerned about the fan kicking in? It's reassuring to me when they do kick in as that means the temperature sensor's working and the fan should let most decent equipment run without issue.
 
Thanks Simon,
Actually, my concern is that the fans rarely kick in.
Take the following as a baseline for the BXRi500's:
- cool room (uk autumn/winter with no central heating on in that room, sometimes even an open window - should I ever hear a fan turn on)
- no modelling light
- 2 lights at lowest power. Main light at around 1/2 power or less
- modifiers = elinchrom kit soft boxes & some reflectors.
- By lunch time, there is certainly some heat detectable, but not much and certainly not as hot as say a D-lite 4 IT would be - which would have had its fan running from around the 100 shot mark.
In terms of how often I fire - I must admit I'm trying something just now to see if it sells. Essentially I'm trying to capture the development of a reaction to a moment, or indeed a series of moments. This does mean I am using the lights more than I have in the past. I've randomly sampled a few folders over several days shooting and it works out between 6-10 shots per minute, with gaps between moments and gaps between clients. If this turns out to be too much for the lights, as it would appear to be the case, then fine I'll repair them and then decide how to proceed.
 
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