Being proposed as "official" club 'tog - help needed

bigrob

bigrob

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Robin
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Hi All

The manager of my son's football team has offered to put my name forward to be the "official" club photographer.

This is what he is proposing.

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- Attend at least 2 macthes from every age group in any one season
- Attend all cup finals should teams reach it.
- Provide a costing package to those people who want to puchase photos from you.
- A page on our website to be dedictated to you.
- Would you be willing to to pay the club a £1 from every photo purchased?
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The two "issues" I see with this are

1) It looks like an "on spec" deal. i.e. I turn up, take photos and "hope" that I sell enough for it to be a viable deal.

2) They want £1 / photo purchased.

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I am not keen on the "on spec" deal as I have no idea what any sales are likely to be.

£1/per photo seems quite high to me if sales aren't high.

I am not able to print at home. So if I fulfill I would need to give a time limit to the ordering so that I could print from someone like DSCL and only pay one P&P charge. Secondly if I was to charge £5 per 7x5 then at £1/per photo they take 20% before any costs of doing business are taken in to account. e.g. insurance, public liability, tax, depreciation etc etc.

So I am calling on all your experience and wisdom to help me structure a proposal that may work for both parties.

n.b. anyone got a spreadsheet handy that lists the things to consider in a cost of doing business analysis?

Thanks.
 
Robin
How many age groups ? I would seriously consider the job as it will also open doors to other events.

The costing can be negotiated and the work flow is something that can also be fine tuned. As long as you get to choose the dates etc etc then I can't see it being a bad thing.

Presentations, Parties etc etc
 
There are about 10 age ages I think - U7s to 16s.
 
If they wish to employ you as an official club photographer then treat it as a business deal and quote them a price. This can be broken down ito attendace costs- photo costs and or time costs. I would advise against doing it as a "friend" type of thing because you will quickly be taken advantage of.

Realspeed
 
Rob, you could make a fair crack from the junior sections in print sales, parents will buy any old dross of their loved ones (not for one minute assuming you would supply dross) but you know where im coming from, then theres the parents of all the opposing teams as well and word spreads like wildfire.

Consider it and only you can work out what is and isnt reasonable but i personally think 20% is very fair but i would ask the club to accept 20% on profit and not on sales.
 
He he on the dross.

I was also thinking along the lines of a cut of the profit and not sales.
 
I would be tempted, especially with there being 10 ages groups approx, cover one every weekend, maybe even two depending on fixtures/days and you could earn a nice packet should parents take you up via sales

It gets you and your name out and about to which can lead to other things
 
You can make a lot of money selling photos of the kids to parents, they will buy anything, I always try to get ball, face and all body parts in shot but if their kid just stands on the edge of the 6 yard box and does nothing just take their photo when facing you they run or walk towards you as long as they look like they are doing something they will buy it, they also rarely buy just a single print most people buy 2 6x8 or 6x9 and a few smaller options in my experience.the key is making sure everyone know where they can view the photos and get them up as soon as you can.

I wouldn't be happy with £1 per print as thats a lot for a small print great if they are buying large prints but not small ones I would look at 10% maybe a bit more if you feel generous of print takings not including postage if you want to do profit then your telling them how much your making on the deal so I prefer to keep things like that a little more private.

If you want to automate the process there is lots of talk about online galleries who full fill printing and delivery direct to the customer. I use Imagepartner from Colourworld imaging. Money goes direct to my paypal account I pay colourworld from the bank which is a downside but not too bad their postage is expensive and their prints are not the cheapest but the solution is very simple and easy to set up and only costs £25. which I made back easily in the first order.
 
Just my thoughts:

£5 per player per match attendance fee, which includes a CD of all (usable) pics at 600px for FB etc. Prints available at £10 for 9x6 scaling upwards with 10-20% of profit to the club based on prints alone.

If you really want to sweeten it, each player gets 1 free 9x6 per season.

I'm not so sure that I'd be happy with a page on their site. I'd rather have a dedicate page & URL on my site for them
 
Thanks for all the replies so far.

I am liking Mark's idea.
 
The thing is... you are on spec (theres no other way you will get the deal) and as much as everyone says you will make a killing I would say you might...

I know one club I can shoot and sell hundreds of pounds of pics online.. I know others i wouldn't bother shooting because they dont buy.

I sell mine for a fiver but used to sell them for £3 ..I send off for prints and at £5 it can be a healthy profit., parents tend not to buy one... usually a few and the more they buy the bigger the profit..

Its kids, its football.. Your bound to sell some but a bit hit and miss as to amking a fortune :)

OK heres your biggest problem nobody has mentioned... Suppose you commit.. thats a full football season and cup finals.. Suppose you find out quickly that its a bit poor sales... Or suppose between now and end of season you get a better offer or other more lucrative avenues open.. I haven't got the answer.. only the question :)
 
I was hoping you would pitch in Tony.

Using the Zenfolio account I have I can offer multiples. I think however you mentioned in another thread how you didn't like those as parents group together to buy to get the discount.

I was talking it over just now with "the missus" and saying exactly what you were. If I make the commitment and after a month have only sold a few few photos, then the commitment has already been made.

I am toying with the idea of only offering say 9x6s or 10x8s in a mount for £10. Parents are used to buying these on football tours. On the tours I have been on they sell well and a lot of parents buy the Team and the Individual (T&Is) photos. £10 each or two for £15.

I know from reading on POTN http://photography-on-the.net/forum/ that in the States the T&Is photos are the money spinner.

I have since I posted the thread spoken to the manager who has said it wouldn't be compulsory to give anything back to the club.

I appreciate that other avenues could be opened (e.g. if a child plays cricket in the summer) but I also think about "money per hour". £2/hr is no good to man nor beast.
 
I am also a club photographer for a rugby league team in my area, and the problem was that they just stopped buying, It was not worth my while shooting down there, but it did open up other avenues for me and a lot of the local clubs know me now and that in its self offers more opportunities for me.

Forget attendance fees etc etc it just doesn't happen, wishful thinking on some peoples minds.

If your images are half decent and your pricing is good for the area you live in then you will do ok....It's a regular income....not fantastic but fair.

It's the other things that may bring in more work. The parents of the kids have links and connections all over the place so its a great place to network and get your name around.

Its a great opportunity if you play it correctly.
 
If your pitching mounted prints at a tenner from a website I fear your not going to sell many.. Yes thats what they pay onsite... impulse or kid preassure...

Nothing wrong wiht selling multiples.. its discounts that can lose you money

Its a hit or miss situation but a big commitment.. you can certainly network through it as others have suggested but you still need to work at that.. following up every hint of anything..

If it was me with no other photo commitments I would deffo give it a go.. work at it and make what i could :) Its an opportunity is what it is ..
 
Personally, I think its worth a punt as long as you get the following:
Individual shots of EVERY player from every age group, plus a team shot of EVERY age group. Sell these at £10 each for a 9x6.

Then, offer "live" photos at smaller sizes, such as a 6x4, for £3-4 per print and if you market the images with small flyers (Even just home printing on plain card) and say "Perfect for creating an album of your season" you will get a few sales that way. However, it would mean to commiting to most games, if not all with the latter idea.

I was asked by my Brother-In-Law to shoot the team he coaches, and it made the day worth it In my opinion from the sales of the single shots and team shots.
 
I agree Tug - I like Mark's idea but I think people would be asking "what am I getting for my tenner?"

Yes they would get good value with a 9x6 and images for FB - however the resistance would be the upfront costs. Also I think it would be difficult to get all parents to agree.

Yes Tony I think you are right - I need to give it a go and see. If I don't try it I wont ever know.

So options

1) What sizes to offer?
2) Online fulfilment? - e.g. photobox pro gallery.
I sell a 7x5 at £5
My royalty = £5 - 20% vat = £4
Take away cost of print to me = £4 - 16p = £3.86 (20p to print - vat = 16p).
Photobox ecommerce fee of 10% of 40p.
£3.86 - 40p = £3.46 Gross profit.

The advantage of photobox is that they handle it all for you. BUT their progalllery website is lousy. It works at a crawl. Secondly their quality is nowhere near as good as DSCL.

3) Online fulfilment using OneVisionImaging via my Zenfolio account.
I need to check this as I can't remember what Zenfolio's commision is and whether
there is a OneVision take as well.

4) Fulfil from home. Get customers to order by a ceratin date - e.g. 1 week after photos go online. Then print via DSCL and give to the team manager's to hand out.
More profit this way per photo but I think it get messy.

Any other suggestions?
 
I've just checked and OneVision charge £3.76 (inc vat) for P&P so that rules them out.
 
I found that the people making the purchases were the Mums,Aunties and Grandmas. Cash sales with me handing them the prints. Online sales were non existent and when I went online 100%, the sales really slowed down... The area I live in and also the area my potential customers live in are not that happy to do the internet thing.

As much as it is convenient to me as I self fulfill, it wasn't the best option for those paying....Note to self...Know your customers.

Dye sub maybe an option for you Robin. The initial outlay is quite high in terms of printer/equipment but the running costs are then very small. second hand printer may be the way to go initially.

Pm me you tel number..
 
On site with a dyesub does work and increases sales due to the impulse purchases, the downside is you need to have someone manning the PC and printer so parents can have a look during the match and buy. I did 2 events the other weekend a golf day and a kids cricket match where because I was out shooting the golf those that finished early couldn't buy and it was prime time they could look at the photos quite leisurely. I did OK out of the day as it was also tied in with an evening do so they bought later in the day. The cricket I got someone to run the print station and to show the images off and we did very well with parents browsing during the game and buying and then even more at the end compare it to the full day at the Golf and the 3-4 hours at cricket the hourly rate at cricket was huge. I had posters up everywhere even "forgot" to remove them, they had my website address on there ;)

There is little point shooting every game, parents will stop buying. They do also prefer to buy from memorable games so finals etc unless you get a goal or celebration then they will probably buy that as well. See if you can hire a dyesub and give it a go.
 
Little John said:
On site with a dyesub does work and increases sales due to the impulse purchases, the downside is you need to have someone manning the PC and printer so parents can have a look during the match and buy. I did 2 events the other weekend a golf day and a kids cricket match where because I was out shooting the golf those that finished early couldn't buy and it was prime time they could look at the photos quite leisurely. I did OK out of the day as it was also tied in with an evening do so they bought later in the day. The cricket I got someone to run the print station and to show the images off and we did very well with parents browsing during the game and buying and then even more at the end compare it to the full day at the Golf and the 3-4 hours at cricket the hourly rate at cricket was huge. I had posters up everywhere even "forgot" to remove them, they had my website address on there ;)

There is little point shooting every game, parents will stop buying. They do also prefer to buy from memorable games so finals etc unless you get a goal or celebration then they will probably buy that as well. See if you can hire a dyesub and give it a go.
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I wasn't suggesting onsite printing....What I was offering as a self fullfil solution, was to be able to print a product at home and hand the product to the parents at the club on a later day. No extra processing costs and no wages to pay an assistant and more importantly no postal costs.

This way overcomes just about all the extra costs that would be incurred by using a third party printing company.

What Robin must decide is, has he got the time to process the orders himself on an evening or his spare day off.
 
Tugster said:
I found that the people making the purchases were the Mums,Aunties and Grandmas. Cash sales with me handing them the prints. Online sales were non existent and when I went online 100%, the sales really slowed down... The area I live in and also the area my potential customers live in are not that happy to do the internet thing.

..
Click to expand...

They cant afford decent shoes in Cas let alone the Internet :lol:

Where were you Sunday mate, missed a belter at Cas.
 
Tugster said:
I wasn't suggesting onsite printing....What I was offering as a self fullfil solution, was to be able to print a product at home and hand the product to the parents at the club on a later day. No extra processing costs and no wages to pay an assistant and more importantly no postal costs..
Click to expand...

I currently use a canon printer for small orders and send off for large... can you give me an idiots guide to setting up a better solution.. initial cost then runnign costs.. am thinking 7x5 and a4
 
Tugster said:
Dye sub maybe an option for you Robin. The initial outlay is quite high in terms of printer/equipment but the running costs are then very small. second hand printer may be the way to go initially.

Pm me you tel number..
Click to expand...

Phone no coming soon.

I am trying through work as we buy Fuji stuff to get a decent discount on the Fujifilm Ask2500

http://business.fujifilm.co.uk/photofinishing/photo-finishing-products/thermal-photo-printers

Tugster said:
What Robin must decide is, has he got the time to process the orders himself on an evening or his spare day off.
Click to expand...

Yes he does :D

It is the intial investment that is a bit worrying I guess.
 
I have a question, thought I'd ask in here, say a club wanted their photos in the newspaper but I know for a fact that the local ones don't pay, would you accept payment off the club for it to appear in the paper or wouldn't you do it because of the principle of it?
 
alexw9 said:
I have a question, thought I'd ask in here, say a club wanted their photos in the newspaper but I know for a fact that the local ones don't pay, would you accept payment off the club for it to appear in the paper or wouldn't you do it because of the principle of it?
Click to expand...

How bigs the local club... man utd and everton are local to lots of people... whats the local paper and whats your relationship wiht the club... tell us them things and will be easy to answer :)
 
Gary Coyle said:
They cant afford decent shoes in Cas let alone the Internet :lol:

Where were you Sunday mate, missed a belter at Cas.
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Hi Gary,

I was doing a footy tournament in South Yorkshire....Sounded like a great game..I told Tom that if I had other paid work on that I would not be in a position to shoot.

Just tried to ring Robin but no answer on the mobile number.
 
KIPAX said:
I currently use a canon printer for small orders and send off for large... can you give me an idiots guide to setting up a better solution.. initial cost then runnign costs.. am thinking 7x5 and a4
Click to expand...

Hi Tony,

If on spec, I shoot and put the images on line....Parents access images or I provide an album of 6x4's (Watermarked & Numbered) I then ask a parent to act as a picture manager and then get them to take the orders, process and take order back to club for pic manager to hand out....worked quite well until images were being removed from album and probably scanned. Thats when I started watermarking the images.

The 6x4's are pennies when done on the Dye Sub.

You could even get the local tesco/asda etc to print the 6x4's for you.

There isn't one Dye Sub that will do all sizes you mentioned above....I'm sure the Dye Sub prints will work out much better value than your Canon Inkjet.

PhotoMart and System Insight will have details on their websites of the cost/print (6x4, 7x5, 8x6, 9x6 10x8 and 12x8's)

I have 2 of Mitsubishi CP3800DW's and 2 of Mitsubishi CP9800DW's ...I also have a couple of older backup machines Mitsubishi 9550DW's.
They are fantastic bits of kit but I need them for the amount of images we print.

Pre-ordered are best as you can do it all yourself, Take the images,Take the order and payment and return the order later that day or the next day.

I'm sure there are other ways to do this but I find this way to be very easy, especially the way that I work.

Forgot to mention the Picture manager gets preferential rates and freebies...Great incentive !!! lol
 
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I think this could be a fantastic opertunity if careful thought is applied.

For instance look at it as a "season" long project. Briefly start with team shots for all ages at the start of each season. Then on a per game you could offer Cd's, montages or collection of images in print plus individual prints. A bit more thought should come up with a few more idea's that should keep the parents "purchase" interests active.
 
Sounds like others have good experience with this - useful tips here and there in this thread, thanks.

I've done four athletics shoots and made a pittance of net profit on most. Main problems is awareness I think. Leaflets advertising the web site worked but mostly when I went round at the event and talked to families and competitors. Still low percentage uptake even then. I think many people stuff leaflet in bag and forget it after.

Also suspect prints-on-the-spot would sell very well, but initial outlay and second person manning are a big drawback for me.

Good idea to invite special shot requests though. When I've been asked for shots of particular person in particular event, very high conversion to print sales there. Recommend punting this even if you were going to take photos of person/event anyway.

One last suggestion - offer digital image files for sale too. I never get more than one or two prints from an image so you're not giving away the golden goose. I offer two kinds - low res for web/email use (600/400ish with a small watermark punting my web site) for £4 and full res (12Mp with no usage restrictions or watermarks) for £20. Have sold both kinds and of course fulfilment is trivial with zero print/postage cots.
 
Imagical said:
Sounds like others have good experience with this - useful tips here and there in this thread, thanks.

I've done four athletics shoots and made a pittance of net profit on most. Main problems is awareness I think. Leaflets advertising the web site worked but mostly when I went round at the event and talked to families and competitors. Still low percentage uptake even then. I think many people stuff leaflet in bag and forget it after.

Also suspect prints-on-the-spot would sell very well, but initial outlay and second person manning are a big drawback for me.

Good idea to invite special shot requests though. When I've been asked for shots of particular person in particular event, very high conversion to print sales there. Recommend punting this even if you were going to take photos of person/event anyway.

One last suggestion - offer digital image files for sale too. I never get more than one or two prints from an image so you're not giving away the golden goose. I offer two kinds - low res for web/email use (600/400ish with a small watermark punting my web site) for £4 and full res (12Mp with no usage restrictions or watermarks) for £20. Have sold both kinds and of course fulfilment is trivial with zero print/postage cots.
Click to expand...

How do the Digital sale go with those sizes and prices ?
 
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