Background studio flash and subject studio flash - What w/s realistically

V8burble

V8burble

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Ok I'm finally at the stage where I can seriously put some thought into purchasing the right studio lighting kit for my needs. Home/nursery/playgroup/schools mainly 1-3 kids.
I'm looking at two background flash heads to cope with white BG shoots when called for and let's face it, it's still a look that's requested A LOT, together with two subject flash heads for large Octobox key and a smallish fill softbox.
With the BG heads being used either bare or with a BG reflector can I realistically get away with 200w/s heads here assuming that I go for 300w/s heads for the softboxes.
I'm mindful that I may want to achieve 1-2 stops over-exposure of the BG but then they will be bare flash heads rather than burdened with modifiers.
Budgetwise I'm in the region of £800 for the heads themselves I guess, so looking at Lencarta ElitePro/Smartflash and equivalent, but I'm more interested in peoples thoughts on light balance/ratios being possible with the 200 & 300w/s mix rather than a debate on which manufacturer at the moment. If I have to I may go all 300w/s but I'd rather save if I can.

Interested to hear your thoughts/experiences guys :thumbs:


Ooooo look post no 2222!
 
I always say get the most powerful you can afford as there will be a time when you need it in the future and you'll kick yourself, it's easy to turn them down but impossible to make them any brighter ;)
 
It would make a lot of sense to fit background reflectors to the background lights. Not only will they control light spill and light the background evenly and work at a close distance, they are also pretty efficient in terms of light output.
With the BG heads being used either bare or with a BG reflector can I realistically get away with 200w/s heads here assuming that I go for 300w/s heads for the softboxes.
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You've got it the wrong way round. you don't need 1 - 2 stops more light on the background (unless you want to create the terrible results that get posted on the internet and prasied to the heavens :)) but you do need 1/2 - 1 stop more light on the background, which means that the more powerful lights need to go on the background not on the foreground.

Therefore, if you want to save money you could get 2 x Lencarta SmartFlash 200 heads for the main subject and 2 x Lencarta ElitePro 300 heads for the background. The both recycle to full power in 1 second so they will work seamlessly together.

Or you could get 1 x ElitePro 300 for your key light and 2 more for your background lights and get 1 x SmartFlash 200 for your fill light (which would work well with a shoot through umbrella as fill).

As far as power is concerned it's worth remembering that you can always 'double' effective power simply by increasing the ISO from 100 to 200 - which, on most modern DSLR cameras, makes such a small change to image quality that it won't be noticed.
 
Thank you Garry. I know I stated 200w/s on the BG lights and 300w/s for the subject, as I was assuming that with them being bare flashes (or with BG reflectors) and close to the BG this might offset their lower w/s power rating compared to the subject lights that would loose output being through softboxes. It would appear not then LOL, I might just go 300w/s throughout for flexibility if nothing else
 
Garry Edwards said:
It would make a lot of sense to fit background reflectors to the background lights. .
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This is probably a topic in its own right but your background reflector is described as fitting any "s-fit" flash head.

Could you (or anyone) explain who / what that is? My lights are a basic elinchrom starter set and they appear to be a law unto themselves with accessories, so I assume they aren't "s-fit".
 
onomatopoeia said:
This is probably a topic in its own right but your background reflector is described as fitting any "s-fit" flash head.

Could you (or anyone) explain who / what that is? My lights are a basic elinchrom starter set and they appear to be a law unto themselves with accessories, so I assume they aren't "s-fit".
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S fit is the current Bowens fitting (the previous Bowens fitting, L fit, has been obsolete for many years) and S fit is the closest thing there is to a standard in the UK. All Lencarta lights use the S fitting.

Elinchrom has an entirely different fitting that isn't compatible with anything else. There are a few very basic modifiers available for Elinchrom from 3rd party suppliers but they are... basic.
 
Thanks Garry - suspected as much.

Garry Edwards said:
Elinchrom has an entirely different fitting that isn't compatible with anything else.
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So I'm left wondering about getting something with the Bowens fitting should I decide to upgrade / buy more simply because of the availability and price of the accessories. Oh well, lots of things on the shopping list before more lighting!
 
I think the power you need depends on your preferred style. This is what I use, and it works well for me.

I tend to shoot at ISO100 f/5.6 as it gives medium depth of field on a crop body and optimum lens sharpness. For that, my 200ws D-Lites are fine. I recall recently shooting at minimum power with a 70cm softbox and getting f/5.6, though admittedly the light was pretty close (for max softness).

I use two Canon 580 speedlites on the background and they are fine at 1/8th power but again my set up is small and everything is pretty close. If I had more space, I would increase everything - more distance, bigger diffusers, more power. It would make life a heck of a lot easier, too. As it is, I am looking to get a HiLite background (FlashInThePan is bringing in a cheaper one) to expand the options within my limited space - largely dictated by the domestic rooms I find myself in - and I think they are quite efficient. Remember you have two lights on the background, so that is double the power.

However, if you want to pull the lights back and shoot at f/11 with maybe the background at f/16, then that is altogether a different set of needs completely.

The difference between 200ws and 300ws is neither here nor there frankly - half a stop. Think in terms of 400ws or 600ws to make a meaningful difference. It is possible to have too much power, but very rare. Shooting for very shallow DoF at f/1.8 is about the only time I can think of so then just stick an ND filter on the lens.
 
Thank you people, some good points and plenty to think about.

Off to do some proper market research next. See what my local potential customers want, what they are getting and what they would need to jump and even stay loyal.

If it only it was just the ability to take nice photographs hey
 
Richard has made some valid points.
My guess is that the OP should be looking at something closer to f/11 than f/5.6 for this type of subject, and the lights wouldn't be close (harder light suits the complexion of kids better than sof lighting) and they need a fairly large space to move around in, so much more power is needed for this kind of shooting than, say, for a headshot.

I see that a Nikon D200 is being used here - that's a minimum ISO setting of 200 isn't it?
Take a look at this comparison chart on the Lencarta website. That's a real world test in a large studio. The output figures would be higher in a smaller space because of reflected light from walls, ceilings etc and using 200 ISO adds another stop of power. All of the figures I produce for Lencarta are real world. The energy storage figures, e.g. 300 Ws, and guide numbers produced by measuring a light with a high efficiency reflector, don't help anyone to decide what's right for their needs IMO.

So, even a large 150cm softbox at a distance of 10' will give at least f/8 with the Smartflash 200 and f/10 with the ElitePro 300 - and I doubt whether the key light would be that far away.

That leaves the question "Are there any other benefits in having a lot more power?" and the answer is yes, higher power will allow the lights to be set to a lower power and because of that they will recycle faster.
Now, if you're photographing kids toys then recycling time doesn't matter in the least, but the kids can change their expression in an instant and having lights that are ready to fire as fast as you can press the button - which all of the Lencarta mains powered lights can do at low power settings - can be a big advantage. But it will cost a lot more.
What is the image quality of your camera like at 400 ISO? If you're happy with it then the problem is solved. If you're not, you might want to think about more powerful lights, say the 600 model.

It's a bit like deciding whether to buy a car with a 1 litre engine or a 3 litre engine. If you're going to need the extra power often it may be worth the extra cost, but a waste of money if you're only going to use the car for the school run.
 
Thank you Garry for another nicely reasoned answer. Yes, currently I'm using a trusty D200 (100iso min) but to be honest I'd be looking to stay up to just iso200 for studio work. I have an upgrade plan in place, but it is a slow process based on the flow of cash coming in of course. For the sake of £50 extra a head to achieve a more flexible/useable setup that I can put to different scenarios without having to worry about ramping up the iso is (in the long run) money well spent I think. Ok you can go mad and blow lots of money on high power heads, but 600w/s heads are still a reasonable price level for consideration.

Edit:
:bonk: on the car analogy as you can see from my avatar :lol:
 
V8burble said:
Thank you Garry for another nicely reasoned answer. Yes, currently I'm using a trusty D200 (100iso min) but to be honest I'd be looking to stay up to just iso200 for studio work. I have an upgrade plan in place, but it is a slow process based on the flow of cash coming in of course. For the sake of £50 extra a head to achieve a more flexible/useable setup that I can put to different scenarios without having to worry about ramping up the iso is (in the long run) money well spent I think. Ok you can go mad and blow lots of money on high power heads, but 600w/s heads are still a reasonable price level for consideration.

Edit:
:bonk: on the car analogy as you can see from my avatar :lol:
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By the car analogy I reckon you need about 1000ws :lol: When you want to do 150mph, there is no substitute for power, but how often do you actually want to do that? Meanwhile, while you're not using the power you are always paying for it with a great lump of an engine that guzzles fuel.

Personally, why anyone should want a preposterously huge and irresponsible V8 like that in this day and age, is utterly beyond comprehension :eek: For most people. For me however, 340bhp and a sound to die for is absolutely where it's at :love: Shame studio lights don't burble.
 
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