B&W book

maninsuitcase

maninsuitcase

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I'm currently about half way through my first roll since 2006 and already I can feel the bug biting. My ebay watch list is full of Nikon FE/M and 50mm 1.8s to join my Zenit TTL and I have already called dibs on dads Voigtländer Perkeo II (probably falls into the broken category though).

The next logical step seems to be to try B&W. But I've decided if I'm going to bother with B&W I may as well bother to develop the stuff too. Cost wise it looks that once you have the kit it's the same more or less as sending it out. But with added "I did that".

I've read through the your first B&W roll thread but it's a bit all over the place. Is there a decent book that I'll be able to find on ebay/amazon used which covers the process and the theory in a bit more detail? Things like pushing and hardening vs non hardening fixers. Reading round the internet I seem to have learnt enough to be dangerous now so a good "bible" might help me not make a mess of any first attempts.

edit:
Also just thought some info on cross processing C-41 as B&W would be nice too. Why destroy a £4 film first time round when you can destroy some poundland agfa.

Failing a book a set of trustwothy internet resources would be ace.
 
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Hi Chris.

I did the same as you before I developed my first roll. Far too much reading for my own good.

The most useful book I read was "The Darkroom Handbook" by Michael Langford.

But really, once I developed a roll I realised it's very straightforward.

My advice to anyone would be to just get a standard developer and fixer - take dev. times off "The Massive Dev. Chart" here, and go for it.
 
Kevin Allan said:
There were lots of books on this subject in past and charity shops often have them in stock , eg "photographers handbook", anything by John Hedgecoe
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I just looked in every charity shop in town on lunch. Only outdated digital photography books. Further not even a nasty old cheap film point and shoot, not 1 camera in the 5 shops I checked.
 
How much more detail do you want? There are quite a few books that cover things in more or less detail. One of my first thoughts was Jack Coote's Ilford Monochrome Darkroom Practice which I was amazed to find in pdf format as a "community text" here. I like "Way Beyond Monochrome", and there's a lot of useful information in Ctein's Post Exposure which the author has made available as a pdf somewhere. Otherwise, Roger Hicks and Frances Shultz have at least a couple of books on B&W.
 
simon ess said:
Hi Chris.

I did the same as you before I developed my first roll. Far too much reading for my own good.

The most useful book I read was "The Darkroom Handbook" by Michael Langford.

But really, once I developed a roll I realised it's very straightforward.

My advice to anyone would be to just get a standard developer and fixer - take dev. times off "The Massive Dev. Chart" here, and go for it.
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I started with All Your Own Work, which was a Kodak pamphlet in the 1950s. Langford's Basic Photography, 3rd edition (1973) has the best illustrations I've seen of the effect of changing exposure and development on the negative; but these were removed in later editions. Definitely gone by the 7th; not sure at what point they were removed.
 
simon ess said:
I did the same as you before I developed my first roll. Far too much reading for my own good.
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Probably what's happened. I am very much I must know as much as I can about any subject before I take action, it's a flaw and it's often irritating.

Guess it's a case of picking a developer and fixer (do I really need stop and flow? the Youtube video I watched didn't bother). Just get what's cheap initially? I see a lot of different choices mentions but no really reason as to why get one over another.

Other than that all I need are a tank and a scanner which I have assorted watches for on eBay.
 
I started with my own devving earlier this year and it is far more straight forward than I imagined.

I followed a little video done by our own @donut which (if you can put up with the outrageous accent) was really helpful and easy to follow. Hopefully he can link to it for you.

Just moved on to using a Jobo processor and doing colour now, finding it really rewarding and a lot cheaper. :)

Andy
 
That's the spirit.

I'm not experienced enough to give you reasons for developer choice. I found one that works for me and stick with that. Kodak HC110 solution B.

I don't use stop, just a good water bath from the tap. I fill and empty the tank 3 times. Just make sure it's not too cold.

Flow = a drop of wash up liquid.
 
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Personally I'd get a softpack of rodinal if you can, 300ml will do enough films for you to get the hang of things and shouldn't be much more than a fiver. I've never used stop but the Ilford wash post developing and post fix has done me fine and doesn't use much water. If you can't get a packet of D76 its easy to mix and you can either reuse or dilute it 1+3 which will do enough films for you get a feel of what you want from a developer.
 
Developers have three different properties to balance: film speed, grain size, sharpness. For convenience, you can add in whether they come in powder or liquid form, and how long they last. I use Rodinal because it's an acutance developer (think of it as developing the film with a Photoshop "unsharp mask" added) and I prefer this; it lasts forever (almost - and not true of some of the Rodinal work alikes which don't), and it's economical. But I don't use 35mm film, and the grain from Rodinal would stop me using it on a small format film. D76\ID11 are middle of the road, and are said by many to offer the best compromise between the opposing factors.

As a broad generalisation - there are exceptions - developers are alkaline and fixers are acidic. Hence the use of an acid stop bath leads to more control over the development time because it stops development almost immediately, and prevents alkaline carry over into the fixer.

A wetting agent in the final wash helps to reduce the possibility of drying marks; the value is probably greater in hard water areas, or if you don't use distilled water as the final wash. Even if you do, because the wetting agent reduces the surface tension of the water, it runs off more easily.
 
If you want to go into the details of developers, try The Film Developing Cookbook by Ancell and Troop.
 
With something like ID-11 it comes as a powder and you make up 1l at a time. This is seems enough for 3ish films used neat, but if I only want to develop 1 film can this be stored and if so how long can it be stored before it goes bad? Chems going bad seems to be a source of much agro.
 
Yeah it'll store for a few months, but best to try and get the air out of the bottle. ID11 is exactly the same as D76 its just a little more expensive.
 
Ah okay, so it's reusable. Possibly not a great 1st go then seeing as I don't know how fast I'll get through film yet.

As a side thought stop is basically acid. Reading says you can use a bit of distilled vinegar 1:2 ish with water, worth it or just stick with water. 46p a pint in Tesco seems cheap enough. Will use a drop of washing up liquid as wetting agent to get started, another few quid saved.

edit; also no one seems to say if he stop/rinse water temperature is important. Does this need to be 20deg or just what ever comes out the cold tap?
 
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I theory it should be within a few degrees of the film temperature to prevent damage to the emulsion but I usually just go with "warm", a mix of some hot water and mostly cold. Its very scientific this film stuff ;)
 
If film is subjected to a sudden change in temperature, it can crack up - the effect is caused reticulation. Older films were more prone to this, and I've heard it said that it's very hard to do with modern films. I always err on the side of caution, and never use water straight from the cold tap as I know it's very much colder than the processing temperature. Sometimes minor reticulation can be mistaken for increased grain size. If it were easier to post photos I'd show an example of reticulation.

I always make sure that all the chemicals and washes are at 68 degrees.
 
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On storage of developer, the problem is oxidation, so either ensure that the bottle is completely full (concertina bottle or glass marbles) or use a spray of inert gas to protect the solution from air.
 
I've no idea what's in GCSE chemistry - long after my time.

On the original questions, the difference between hardening and non hardening fixers is more theoretical than practical, since you're more likely to use a hardening fixer than not unless you mix your own. Hardening protects the soft emulsion from mechanical damage, but makes it more difficult to wash the fixer out. That's about it. You should always be careful with the emulsion side of the film to avoid sratches, and it's more prone to damage when wet. I never use a squeegee for that reason, although others swear by them. It only takes on small piece of grit to create a lovely tramline. The emulsion is more likely to damage at higher tempertures - in extreme cases you can float it off if you really want to. I suppose some would like the unusual effect...
 
On pushing etc.

Beyond a certain minimum, extra development build up the highlights, not the shadows. Extended development can bring out a little more shadow detail, but has exactly the same effect as pushing up the ISO with a digital camera - increased noise, in the form of both "false development" of grains that weren't exposed and a higher overall level of chemical fog (meaning the negatives are denser without adding more detail.

You can use this with high or low contrast scenes to give extra development to low contrast scenes (and slightly less exposure) and the reverse with high contrast. Say about 10 - 15% extra.

Some developers are forumlated to give a slight increase in film speed.
 
Would T-Max be a good film to start with? 7 day shop have it for about £4.64 a roll which is probably the cheapest I've seen for B&W film so far. Think I can get HP5+ in town for a bit over £5 a roll but need to check.
 
T-Max is my personal favourite.

These are all taken with it.
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/more-old-ruins.560824/

I have used T-Max developer, but it works out too expensive. I now use Kodak HC-110.

Steve might well be right about using non Kodak developer, although Acculux, when it was available, also worked well.
 
HP5 can often be very grainy indeed; I like Tri X a lot, but I'm being tempted to buy some TMax for more flexibility and a finer-grained look... BUT (a) I have no idea what all this means, either, and (b) when I've tried comparing shots taken with different films, I can't really see all that much difference (apart from HP5, obviously). Some of the smoothy guys like Acros but it's not High Street stuff.
 
It's all to do with the way the film is made, and the effect on the shape of the grain. In simple terms, normal B&W film has grain like boulders; the films like T-Max have grain like paving slabs - regular in shape. It saves silver, so is cheaper to make. It has finer grain for a given speed. It's the easiest thing in the world to overdevelop and push the contrast way up.
 
Having wasted time I should have been working looking over a few sites looks like some Kentmere 400 is a winner. Cheap from firstcall and as I need the chemicals the postage isn't such a problem.

Looks grainy as a grainy thing pushed though. Got an image in mind that will probably want a 2 stop push. The grain on it will be outrageous.
 
For two stop push I'd start with tri x it's a classic for a reason.
 
Boots are currently doing a half price offer on your 2nd film. They do Kodak BW400CN and Ilford XP2 Super for £6.99 each so effectively £10.49 for 2. You could try one of each. They're C41 process films.
 
Manwithacam said:
Boots are currently doing a half price offer on your 2nd film. They do Kodak BW400CN and Ilford XP2 Super for £6.99 each so effectively £10.49 for 2. You could try one of each. They're C41 process films.
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... and if you buy them with points from your Boots card they are free! Free film, what's not to like? :) :) :) ;)
 
I do have a boots card somewhere but I rarely shop there. I went in recently specifically to see if they carried C41 process black & white film as I can just take it in to Tesco and get it processed for 99p and scanned to CD for £1.95
 
Manwithacam said:
Would I have to spend £1049 to get two using Boots points?
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Depends... they give you 4 points per pound, and each is worth a penny, so to get a pound's worth of points you're spending £25. So you'd need to spend between £250 and £275, over as long as you like... except that there are always offers going, double points, 100 points extra if you buy a shampoo, that sort of thing. I got two rolls of XP2 yesterday, and discovered I've still got enough to buy another couple if I want, and I don't spend that much at Boots!
 
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