Are diesel cars an option for a low mileage use?

[woof woof]

I posted a while back asking for advice on Jaguar v LR/RR 4x4's and thanks for all who posted in that thread. At the time I was looking only at petrol and I'm still thinking about these cars but I'm moving slooowly as I've since started to receive a pension from a company I once worked for and wanted to give it time to see how the finances go. I've lived on my savings for over 11 years now so just giving this pension time to see how it affects my income v outgoings made sense.

Anyway... I thought it might be an idea to at least consider diesel as there are many more diesel cars about than petrol ones so there's more choice. I've never owned one and have only ever had one for a day or so as a curtesy car so I know nothing and I'm looking for advice. My mileage will be low as there's no daily work commute these days and I'm just doing non work stuff like shopping, running errands, having days out etc. Would a diesel be ok for this low millage stuff or would there be difficulties with the engine or anything else?

My current cars are an old MX5 and a Hyundai Gezt, both petrol, and both seem ok with a low millage life. If a diesel is going to be a problem maybe I'll have to restrict myself to petrol.

Oh and I do know that other 4x4's are available but for reasons stated in the other thread I'm just looking at JLR 4x4 cars here.

Any advice on the suitability of a diesel 4x4 for low millage use would be welcome!

 

[Nod]

Short journeys (where the whole system doesn't stay above the optimum temperature for a while) won't do any ICE any favours, although fairly regular longer trips (to get the system properly heated up) will help reduce the chance of problems.

The iPace might be a good option if you have off road parking...

 

[AMcUK]

You need to research Diesel Particulate Filter or DPF problems for the cars you're interested in.
DPF were added to remove ... particules from the exhaust... to make diesels cleaner.
However they periodically need to be cleared by raising the temperature to a point where the soot is burnt off.
That happens when the engine is hot, typically on a long fast run. If the car never runs for long enough or hot enough then the DPF will never "regenerate" can become blocked and cause lots of expensive problems. Failed regenerations where the engine is turned off midcycle can be a problem.
Some diesels are prone to lots of problems, others not.

 

[woof woof]

Short journeys (where the whole system doesn't stay above the optimum temperature for a while) won't do any ICE any favours, although fairly regular longer trips (to get the system properly heated up) will help reduce the chance of problems.

The iPace might be a good option if you have off road parking...

I'm not looking at Ipace or indeed electric at the mo as radical though I may be I'm worried that electric cars in their current form could just be a disaster for the planet as there doesn't seem to be any clear plan on how the components are going to be manufactured and recycled in the vast quantities that will be required if petrol/diesel cars are going to be replaced or how the infrastructure is going to be called into existence as at the mo we can't even produce enough electricity in the UK to supply or current needs without a few million electric cars needing to be plugged in.

So, until things become clearer and perhaps more sustainable electric is not an option I'll be looking at.

Other than that since I retired my current ICE cars don't seem to have suffered from the low millage I do now.

 

[woof woof]

You need to research Diesel Particulate Filter or DPF problems for the cars you're interested in.
DPF were added to remove ... particules from the exhaust... to make diesels cleaner.
However they periodically need to be cleared by raising the temperature to a point where the soot is burnt off.
That happens when the engine is hot, typically on a long fast run. If the car never runs for long enough or hot enough then the DPF will never "regenerate" can become blocked and cause lots of expensive problems. Failed regenerations where the engine is turned off midcycle can be a problem.
Some diesels are prone to lots of problems, others not.

This is the sort of thing that's been on my mind.

With the speed restrictions that have slowly crept further out of towns to just about everywhere my time on 70mph limit roads is limited and the longest run I regularly go on is limited to a max of 50mph.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Two things:-

1) DPF as mentioned above - definitely need longer runs to recycle the DPF, they can fail within low number 10's of K miles if not. My car 2012 diesel generally only does long journeys (229K miles in 9 years!) and the DPF lasted until 194K miles

2) The anti-diesel low pollution zones that are cropping up, certain city centres, etc, now whilst these may not directly affect you - they will ultimately hurt the resale value of diesel vehicles. I'd also expect the tax rates bewteen diesel and petrol to widen over the next few years, so 'the polluting diesel' costs more to run, to encourage users to buy petrol or electric.

I can't see myself rushing to buy another diesel when my current one goes to the graveyard, yet from my mileage use I'm the sort of person who should be using a diesel!!

We recently bought an SUV type vehicle (which my wife uses daily) and opted for a Mild Hybrid - Petrol (Volvo XC60 B5) - been pleasantly surprised by the fuel economy, averaging 36mpg (mix 50% town, 50% long journey)

I know you are keen on a JLR vehicle, but these don't have the best of reliability records (though I'm sure there are plenty of users with fault free vehicles, but many who don't), personally I'd widen the search net (as I wouldn't want the risk of having to visit the dealer on a regular basis!!)

 

[Nod]

Easy enough to keep the revs up at lower speeds (in my JLR Diesel at least) - in Sport mode, it stays in the selected gear rather than changing up at the usual time.

Having said that, in 9 years of Jag Diesel ownership, I haven't had any DPF problems despite an unfair amount of lower speed 1/2 hour journeys.

Not keen on the smaller (2.2 and 2 litre) engines, especially the Diesel versions. They need revving to keep the power up and are a lot busier than the 3l V6 versions.

 

[woof woof]

People mentioned JLR reliability woes in the last thread and yes there clearly are issues but as I said back then people complaining about JLR reliability then happily recommend German cars which according to the usual quality and reliability surveys actually have a worse fault rate than JLR. Googling the worst cars for DPF issues shows that this seems to be a widespread issue and not one limited to JLR. So what to believe? I think it's perhaps fair or wise to believe that as a type these cars have their issues and perhaps a good dealer / mechanic is more important than the actual marque?

And yes, potentially not being allowed into some areas in the future and the effect that could have on value could be an issue.

So, all in all it looks like I should maybe forget about a diesel and go for petrol.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

DPF reliability is down to the way the car has been driven/used, so likely to be very similar across all brands.

On the whole a modern car is very complicated, not the simple mechanical bits - that technology has been around a long time, but the variety of electronic devices (that appear to need regular software updates - and I'm not just talking about the SatNav maps). Far too many gadgets and distractions that we don't need to get from A to B

 

[woof woof]

I read that with the Evoque the siting of the DPF is (allegedly) an issue so maybe this can be a design issue too? I noticed that some people have had multiple failures so to some extent this could potentially be either an issue exacerbated by them or potentially the dealer not fixing some underlying cause.

I did already know that many of the faults are electronic related.

PS.
The money seems to be going ok and we have no children so the thought of a 4x4, it being the only sort of car I've been interested in but not owned, seemed more interesting but I don't know... sometimes I think I wont bother especially when I think of the hate and stupidity some cars can attract. There's deffo something to be said for just not being noticed, which the Getz does well and even the MX5 on many occasions.

I think I'll have a chat with the mechanic I've been going to for years and see what he says but all in all and unless he says something earth shattering I think I'll forget about diesel.

Thanks all. You've (probably) confirmed my fears on this.

 

[robj20]

Not all DPFs work the same.
Mine for instance will happily regen sat on the drive, doesn't need a high temperature or a long fast drive it will simply do it when it's on and needed.

It's happy doing shortish journeys as well, my commute is 23 miles each way 5 days a week.

 

[lindsay]

If you look at the demographics of ownership, a great many Evoques and Disco4's were being used for the school run and little else, hence lots of DPF problems. My Disco4 has almost never been used for less than a 20 mile round trip and the majority of the time 100+ miles each way. Still rubbish mpg though. But my Mazda6 diesel estate averages 59mpg and again mainly longer journeys, and is great to use for those jobs. However I use an old diesel Fiesta for all my local driving (station car now general runabout) with no issues at all.
In your situation I'd look at a crossover petrol hybrid as David MrPerceptive suggested, for the best of all worlds. Your usage doesn't seem to fit with the reasons for going diesel.

 

[woof woof]

If you look at the demographics of ownership, a great many Evoques and Disco4's were being used for the school run and little else, hence lots of DPF problems. My Disco4 has almost never been used for less than a 20 mile round trip and the majority of the time 100+ miles each way. Still rubbish mpg though. But my Mazda6 diesel estate averages 59mpg and again mainly longer journeys, and is great to use for those jobs. However I use an old diesel Fiesta for all my local driving (station car now general runabout) with no issues at all.
In your situation I'd look at a crossover petrol hybrid as David MrPerceptive suggested, for the best of all worlds. Your usage doesn't seem to fit with the reasons for going diesel.

The only reason for looking at diesel are more choice and lower prices.

 

[boyfalldown]

I'd be wary about the political situation if I bought diesel. After encouraging them for years I get the feeling now they are less than popular with councils and the green lobby. In particular low pollution zones tax are cropping up and I'm betting they'll be other measures introduced. There is a reason they're cheap send hand

 

[robj20]

Just need to make sure it's Euro6.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Two things:-

1) DPF as mentioned above - definitely need longer runs to recycle the DPF, they can fail within low number 10's of K miles if not. My car 2012 diesel generally only does long journeys (229K miles in 9 years!) and the DPF lasted until 194K miles

2) The anti-diesel low pollution zones that are cropping up, certain city centres, etc, now whilst these may not directly affect you - they will ultimately hurt the resale value of diesel vehicles. I'd also expect the tax rates bewteen diesel and petrol to widen over the next few years, so 'the polluting diesel' costs more to run, to encourage users to buy petrol or electric.

I can't see myself rushing to buy another diesel when my current one goes to the graveyard, yet from my mileage use I'm the sort of person who should be using a diesel!!

We recently bought an SUV type vehicle (which my wife uses daily) and opted for a Mild Hybrid - Petrol (Volvo XC60 B5) - been pleasantly surprised by the fuel economy, averaging 36mpg (mix 50% town, 50% long journey)

I know you are keen on a JLR vehicle, but these don't have the best of reliability records (though I'm sure there are plenty of users with fault free vehicles, but many who don't), personally I'd widen the search net (as I wouldn't want the risk of having to visit the dealer on a regular basis!!)

Drove through Bath low pollution zone in my 2.0l Octavia and it was exempt as it's Euro6, so more need to just consider how clean a diesel it is, rather than just whether it's petrol/diesel.

 

[woof woof]

Just need to make sure it's Euro6.

I'd be wary about the political situation if I bought diesel. After encouraging them for years I get the feeling now they are less than popular with councils and the green lobby. In particular low pollution zones tax are cropping up and I'm betting they'll be other measures introduced. There is a reason they're cheap send hand

To be honest after this thread, thinking about this today and doing some more Googling I'm cooling quickly. I'll really have to think carefully about what I'm going to do. The push seems to be to get diesel and petrol off the road but with no sign of the electrical infrastructure being massively increased to make electric viable outside of the big cities and even if that happens no real sign that the cars are going to become more practical any time soon. Plus there's my worry that electric with the tech as it exists now in the showrooms is going to be a disaster.

Maybe I should have bought a 4x4 10 years ago.

 

[Pixbarmy]

I've just bought a 2012 Sportage 1.7 diesel with only 48k on the clock. It has had 2 lady owners and I paid particular attention to the emissions results on the MOT. They were negligible! Just proves that even on a low miler, they can be OK. As I do very little mileage, I will use the "best" diesel and also give it a bottle of Forte treatment every so often on a long run.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Drove through Bath low pollution zone in my 2.0l Octavia and it was exempt as it's Euro6, so more need to just consider how clean a diesel it is, rather than just whether it's petrol/diesel.

Mines Euro 5 but won’t replace it until it gives up - another 70K miles and it will hit 300K, about run in for a Volvo

 

[boogie man]

Diesel doesn’t make much financial sense unless you’re doing 10k miles or more a year. You can get round the short run DPF issues by doing a regular long
run at 50mph plus, to get everything up to temperature so the soot/ash gets burnt off, but then you could be using fuel unnecessarily to achieve that.

Then add in the fact that more and more bigger cities will be following the London plan and bringing in ULEZ, which means pre 2015 diesels will be chargeable for every trip in the zone. We got rid of our 2013 diesel Jag XF partly because of that fact (it was also getting unreliable).

 

[woof woof]

Diesel doesn’t make much financial sense unless you’re doing 10k miles or more a year. You can get round the short run DPF issues by doing a regular long
run at 50mph plus, to get everything up to temperature so the soot/ash gets burnt off, but then you could be using fuel unnecessarily to achieve that.

Then add in the fact that more and more bigger cities will be following the London plan and bringing in ULEZ, which means pre 2015 diesels will be chargeable for every trip in the zone. We got rid of our 2013 diesel Jag XF partly because of that fact (it was also getting unreliable).

But it can do if the diesel car is significantly cheaper than the petrol version and there's more available and therefore more choice. Those are the only reasons I was looking at the diesel option, cheaper prices and more choice.

 

[gman]

I would stick to petrol or MHEV if you are doing mainly short journeys. I've done the diesel and short journey thing with an XF and wasted a lot of time monitoring and looking after the DPF.

What kind of budget are you thinking of for a JLR 4x4?

 

[woof woof]

I would stick to petrol or MHEV if you are doing mainly short journeys. I've done the diesel and short journey thing with an XF and wasted a lot of time monitoring and looking after the DPF.

What kind of budget are you thinking of for a JLR 4x4?

I don't know. I keep flipping between new and used.

My main love has been open 2 seaters and luckily they're often cheaper. That's the sort of car I've had and like the most, MG's, MX5's, a couple of Lotus. The only non 2 seat open cars I've bought are two Mini's (original Mini's) and a Jag S Type plus I inherited a Hyundai Getz which I still have, but I didn't buy that The most I've ever spent on a car was either my 2.7 Boxster or Merc SLK 230, I think the Merc was a touch more expensive at about £35k or something. So adjusting for inflation and all the rest maybe I'd spend £40k+. Maybe. But... A while back I decided I'd like a saloon as I'd never owned one so I test drove Merc, BMW, Audi and Subaru and eventually wandered into a Jag showroom and into a 3 year old 4ltr Jag S and I loved it and bought it for about £15k. That car was I think pretty much 1/2 new price and that experience, getting a nice car at pretty much 1/2 price, and being repeatedly told for years by lots of people that buying used was better as you let someone else stomach the depreciation keeps nagging at me.

So, I've looked at new and up to 5 YO cars with the used cars ranging from I suppose low to mid £20K's and up to low to mid £30K's. As I've mostly liked and I'm mostly used to open two seaters which are often pretty basic I'm not too bothered about options and I'm only really interested in a spare wheel, powered tailgate and probably cameras too. So that keeps the costs down a bit.

At the mo I'm tending towards a used Evoque or LR Discovery Sport but was previously tending towards a Jag F Pace but Mrs WW thinks the Jag looks old fashioned.

 

[gman]

A lot of room to choose! I get what she means about the F-Pace, the design with most of them is a little bland but the 3.0 supercharged looks good to me, especially in silver which seems to suit it (although that's personal preference)

This one is nice: Autotrader Link




If not bothered by performance then I suppose that opens up the LR Sport as well with the 4 cylinder petrol engines etc. Guess it depends what you want out of the car?

 

[woof woof]

A lot of room to choose! I get what she means about the F-Pace, the design with most of them is a little bland but the 3.0 supercharged looks good to me, especially in silver which seems to suit it (although that's personal preference)

If not bothered by performance then I suppose that opens up the LR Sport as well with the 4 cylinder petrol engines etc. Guess it depends what you want out of the car?

As above, I've included the Defender Sport. Is that the one you mean?

I quite like the Jag and it looks modern to me. I'd describe it as a clean and unfussy design rather than bland. I do quite like it but for peace and quiet maybe I should hear what Mrs WW says.

PS.
I think I prefer the look of the Defender Sport to the Evoque but it's probably needlessly bigger and there are fewer petrol ones to choose from.

 

[welshwizard645]

A Jag should be long and sleek - a 3-box saloon or a 2-door coupe with a petrol engine with minimum 6 cylinders,,, An SUV with a 4-cyl Ingenium engine? - whether diesel of petrol - no thanks. The old unrefined PSA/Duratorq engines totally unsuited to the brand. If I'd have a Jag it would be the XF with the 3.0 litre petrol engine.

For an SUV I'd get a Lexus RX with the 6-cylinder engine.

 

[woof woof]

A Jag should be long and sleek - a 3-box saloon or a 2-door coupe with a petrol engine with minimum 6 cylinders,,, An SUV with a 4-cyl Ingenium engine? - whether diesel of petrol - no thanks. The old unrefined PSA/Duratorq engines totally unsuited to the brand. If I'd have a Jag it would be the XF with the 3.0 litre petrol engine.

For an SUV I'd get a Lexus RX with the 6-cylinder engine.

Unfortunately times and the market have moved on and marques only selling 2/3 box coupe and saloons with 6 cylinders + are going to miss out on sales, if they stay in business at all. Look at the German and Japanese marques and they've moved on too.

An ex of mine has a Lexus 4x4 and Mrs WW has an X Trail (she's left it in her home country) and they're nice cars but they're not on my list as the aim is to buy a Jag or LR. You may not understand that, but in this case just go with it

I have had a 4ltr V8 Jag saloon, a 4x4 is just a different thing and that's the point.

 

[gman]

A Jag should be long and sleek - a 3-box saloon or a 2-door coupe with a petrol engine with minimum 6 cylinders,,, An SUV with a 4-cyl Ingenium engine? - whether diesel of petrol - no thanks. The old unrefined PSA/Duratorq engines totally unsuited to the brand. If I'd have a Jag it would be the XF with the 3.0 litre petrol engine.

For an SUV I'd get a Lexus RX with the 6-cylinder engine.

The six cylinder supercharged F-Pace above is a smooth and powerful engine, rather suitable for a Jaguar I reckon?

 

[gman]

As above, I've included the Defender Sport. Is that the one you mean?

I quite like the Jag and it looks modern to me. I'd describe it as a clean and unfussy design rather than bland. I do quite like it but for peace and quiet maybe I should hear what Mrs WW says.

PS.
I think I prefer the look of the Defender Sport to the Evoque but it's probably needlessly bigger and there are fewer petrol ones to choose from.

Are you meaning the Discovery Sport? Defender is a different beast!

 

[welshwizard645]

Ah Disco Sport.... I'd concede that that is one of the better looking SUVs out there, the P300e might be a buy when my Saab 9-5 has to be relegated to 'weekend car'. Mind you, the designer of the Disco must have been looking at pictures of the 99 or 9-5s when designing it as the window line is pure Sixten Sason.

 

[woof woof]

Are you meaning the Discovery Sport? Defender is a different beast!

Ah, yes sorry that's it. The cheaper one, only slightly more expensive than the Evoque. I do think they look nicer and they're rarer here than the oh look there's another one everywhere you look Evoque. They are a bit bigger though.

 

[Mr Bump]

all diesels cars are bad its not a matter of short or long journeys
if you drive a diesel car you are contributing to increased risks of cancer to your fellow humans

IARC classifies diesel engine exhaust as “carcinogenic to humans,” based on sufficient evidence that it is linked to an increased risk of lung cancer. IARC also notes that there is “some evidence of a positive association” between diesel exhaust and bladder cancer

 

[woof woof]

all diesels cars are bad its not a matter of short or long journeys
if you drive a diesel car you are contributing to increased risks of cancer to your fellow humans

IARC classifies diesel engine exhaust as “carcinogenic to humans,” based on sufficient evidence that it is linked to an increased risk of lung cancer. IARC also notes that there is “some evidence of a positive association” between diesel exhaust and bladder cancer

Perhaps this could have been posted in another thread Paul? Possibly along with the problems electric vehicles pose for the planet and a commitment from you personally and those opposing diesel not to use diesel transport yourselves or to buy goods or services using diesel transport.

 

[Nod]

all diesels cars are bad its not a matter of short or long journeys
if you drive a diesel car you are contributing to increased risks of cancer to your fellow humans

IARC classifies diesel engine exhaust as “carcinogenic to humans,” based on sufficient evidence that it is linked to an increased risk of lung cancer. IARC also notes that there is “some evidence of a positive association” between diesel exhaust and bladder cancer

And the Benzene in unleaded petrol is soooooo good for us all...

 

[gman]

And the Benzene in unleaded petrol is soooooo good for us all...

....only when exiting quad exhausts and creating delightful notes of audible joy!

 

[gman]

Ah, yes sorry that's it. The cheaper one, only slightly more expensive than the Evoque. I do think they look nicer and they're rarer here than the oh look there's another one everywhere you look Evoque. They are a bit bigger though.

I still favour the F-Pace, I see less of them and I'm sure reviews have claimed they handle better? I'm not sure how good the AWD system is though, should you be looking to go off-road.

 

[woof woof]

And electric could well be a planet killer plus I read yesterday that electric car chargers may turn off during peak demand which begs the question of what happens when they're allowed to turn on again? Will the new turn on time be the new peak demand time requiring charging to be stopped again and started at some other and soon to be the new peak demand time?

The answer is obvious. We should live in huts made from sustainably sourced reeds, live on beans, never travel more than 15 miles from our reed hut and have a life expectancy of 25 as we did all those eons ago.

 

[Mr Bump]

Perhaps this could have been posted in another thread Paul? Possibly along with the problems electric vehicles pose for the planet and a commitment from you personally and those opposing diesel not to use diesel transport yourselves or to buy goods or services using diesel transport.

you asked for "Any advice on the suitability of a diesel 4x4 for low millage use would be welcome!"

I gave it
its an appalling idea, i generally thought better of you mate.

 

[gman]

Jesus.... down we go... lol

 

[woof woof]

you asked for "Any advice on the suitability of a diesel 4x4 for low millage use would be welcome!"

I gave it
its an appalling idea, i generally thought better of you mate.

At least you haven't blamed Brexit yet. I do see your point of view but does every thread on this site need to be taken ot and end badly?

Plus there's this...

Perhaps this could have been posted in another thread Paul? Possibly along with the problems electric vehicles pose for the planet and a commitment from you personally and those opposing diesel not to use diesel transport yourselves or to buy goods or services using diesel transport.