Any sparks in here?

[bensherman2]

Hi all

I’ve bought a house where most of what’s been done to it has been done on the cheap... laminate floor put on top of carpets etc
I’m working my way through and a bug bear of mine is I have two way lighting at the top of the stairs but only can turn on and off the bottom light from downstairs- what’s the easiest way to add the extra wiring (preferably without having to chase out the walls)?

Cheers

Matt

 

[Mozthecat]

Not a spark but the following comes to mind.

How many lighting circuits do you have at the fuse board? Is it one for upstairs and one for down? If so are they definitely on the separate circuits? You can check by turning the lights on, and then switching the circuits off one at a time/ pulling the fuse and seeing what happens.

If they are on the same circuit (ring main)you could potentially have them wired together with a single switch up and down so they are both on or off, and then just isolate the redundant wires.

If they are seperate circuits a new cable would need chasing as the circuits cannot be wired together, and you may struggle to fit the additional cables into the pattress depending on depth.

 

[boogie man]

Hi all

I’ve bought a house where most of what’s been done to it has been done on the cheap... laminate floor put on top of carpets etc
I’m working my way through and a bug bear of mine is I have two way lighting at the top of the stairs but only can turn on and off the bottom light from downstairs- what’s the easiest way to add the extra wiring (preferably without having to chase out the walls)?

Cheers

Matt

So can you turn the upstairs light on and off from downstairs? If so, the two way wiring is already in place. Assuming the wiring is already there, there must be a fault sonewhere : the first thing I would check is that there’s no loose wires on both the up and down switches.

 

[Mozthecat]

Good point to clarify, do you have two switches at top and bottom, or one at top and two at bottom?

 

[kendo1]

Sounds like a wiring problem to me too.
Google how it is meant to be connected and then have a look - turn the fuse off for the lighting circuit before you do.

Edit
You really do need to know what you are doing before mucking about with electrical circuits. If in doubt get a qualified electrician in.

 

[frank]

Not a spark but if your not 100% sure get one in cos obviously the two way switch has been wired up wrong, what other electrical wiring has been botched, or you could wait till the house has burned down maybe with your family in it then ask questions. to

 

[Box Brownie]

Sounds like a wiring problem to me too.
Google how it is meant to be connected and then have a look - turn the fuse off for the lighting circuit before you do.

Edit
You really do need to know what you are doing before mucking about with electrical circuits. If in doubt get a qualified electrician in.

^^ this ^^ especially because he says in the OP about so much was done by previous owner on the cheap.........so without getting the electrics surveyed there is no way to know with certainty what 'horror stories' lurk within.

Edit ~ I was typing as @frank posted effectively just what I was saying. Anything suspect in wiring or indeed gas services should not be treated lightly!

 

[bensherman2]

Sorry to not make myself clear.. I only have a one hang switch downstairs with one set of wires.

 

[kendo1]

Sorry to not make myself clear.. I only have a one hang switch downstairs with one set of wires.

Does that mean: neutral, live and earth only?
I take it there isn't a grey?

Seems like you need rewired.

 

[bensherman2]

Does that mean: neutral, live and earth only?
I take it there isn't a grey?

Seems like you need rewired.

Yes there’s only one set of wires, was wondering if it was possible to get another set of wires down without chasing the wall out - by the sounds of it then it’s a no. I do have to decorate the hall, stairs and landing, but that’s after the kitchen that gets delivered tomorrow that I have to fit and the bathroom that’s on order next Oh and I have to get the outside re-rendered as it’s coming away in places. I’ll leave the light for now and probably attack it in the winter.

Thank you all for your replies.

 

[boogie man]

If you want to be able to turn both lights off from either end, you’ll need a) two gang switches at the top and bottom and b) the wiring in between. You won’t be able to sort the wiring without chasing out the wall (well, you could run it in trunking in the surface I suppose, but that is going to look really naff). Sadly it’s also not just a case of direct replacement for the existing set-up, so it’s against the regs to do it yourself unless you get the final connection done and tested by a qualified sparks ( and good luck with finding one who’ll do a small job like that ).

Long story short: if you want it done, get a sparky in. Personally I doubt it’s worth the aggro.

 

[bensherman2]

If you want to be able to turn both lights off from either end, you’ll need a) two gang switches at the top and bottom and b) the wiring in between. You won’t be able to sort the wiring without chasing out the wall (well, you could run it in trunking in the surface I suppose, but that is going to look really naff). Sadly it’s also not just a case of direct replacement for the existing set-up, so it’s against the regs to do it yourself unless you get the final connection done and tested by a qualified sparks ( and good luck with finding one who’ll do a small job like that ).

Long story short: if you want it done, get a sparky in. Personally I doubt it’s worth the aggro.

I will do... I think a friend of a friend is a sparks.
I’ll wait till I redecorate. I just have to turn off the upstairs light before I come down the stairs - luckily I’m not scared of the dark

 

[kendo1]

I will do... I think a friend of a friend is a sparks.
I’ll wait till I redecorate. I just have to turn off the upstairs light before I come down the stairs - luckily I’m not scared of the dark

The cheapest option is a torch
Better yet: two torches, for when you leave one at the wrong end.

Seriously, it depends how your house is constructed.
With plaster board you may be able to use the existing cable to feed a new cable into place.
With plaster on solid wall - you're fxxxxxd. The wall would need chased.

 

[billy nomates]

To have two way switching for a hallway you need a specific cable, it has four wires (including earth) instead of the twin and earth for other types of circuits.
If you don't have that cable installed then its never going to do what you want.
All electrical works now should be certificated by nic/eic qualified sparky, that doesn't mean you can't fit everything but you'll need someone to check it and sign off on it.
If the rest of the house is a bit of a bodge then I would be prioritising getting any Gas and electrics checked and probably renewed

 

[Tori_T]

Personally, I'd sort the electrics before any decorating. If Mr Bodgitt fitted it, it may be sub-standard, and even dangerous, and a qualified spark may condemn it. If the cabling is plastered/nailed in, it could get a bit messy with regards to fresh paint and paper.
I've seen some really scary wiring that was done on the cheap, you really need to get it checked.

 

[bensherman2]

I definitely will be getting an electrician in... it’s not my main priority with the rest of the things needed. I will get the wiring checked when I start ripping out my kitchen as I’ll need plugs moving and extra sockets fitted in there. I will probably need to get the stairs replastered when I strip the wallpaper- but I’ll do a room at a time.
Once again thanks for all the replies

 

[Nod]

If Bodgitt & Scapa co. ltd.'s wiring is deemed safe, how about a time switch to give you some time to get downstairs? Or replace the lamp with an LED one and leave it on, drawing very little power.

 

[sphexx]

Just leave the light on rather than coming downstairs in the dark!

 

[ecoleman]

Stick a Philips hue bulb in there and add a couple of wireless switches.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Stick a Philips hue bulb in there and add a couple of wireless switches.

I have the same problem in my house. As I'm renting, I can't muck about with rewiring anything so yes, I think there may finally be a point for these wifi bulbs

 

[onomatopoeia]

All electrical works now should be certificated by nic/eic qualified sparky, that doesn't mean you can't fit everything but you'll need someone to check it and sign off on it.

No.

Sadly it’s also not just a case of direct replacement for the existing set-up, so it’s against the regs to do it yourself unless you get the final connection done and tested by a qualified sparks

Also no.

You have both significantly overstated the scope of part P. New circuits back to the consumer unit are notifiable work and need certification. Modifications or additions to existing circuits are not, unless in a special location (bathroom basically).

See http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Regulations-Explained for a more complete explanation.

I wouldn't suggest anyone attempts their own electrics unless they understand what they are doing and don't need help from the Internet about how to wire up a light switch.

 

[boogie man]

No.

Also no.

You have both significantly overstated the scope of part P. New circuits back to the consumer unit are notifiable work and need certification. Modifications or additions to existing circuits are not, unless in a special location (bathroom basically).

See http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Regulations-Explained for a more complete explanation.

I wouldn't suggest anyone attempts their own electrics unless they understand what they are doing and don't need help from the Internet about how to wire up a light switch.

And yet it says here http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm that electrical work needs to be done by a “competent person” to comply with Part P. Eg someone who not only understands how the circuit works but also has the ability to test and troubleshoot it if there is a problem. That doesn’t sound like the average diy-er to me.

Has this all changed recently? Because I’m pretty sure I read that diy work nowadays was restricted to changing out existing switches, light fittings and sockets?

 

[Phil V]

And yet it says here http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm that electrical work needs to be done by a “competent person” to comply with Part P. Eg someone who not only understands how the circuit works but also has the ability to test and troubleshoot it if there is a problem. That doesn’t sound like the average diy-er to me.

Has this all changed recently? Because I’m pretty sure I read that diy work nowadays was restricted to changing out existing switches, light fittings and sockets?

There’s no legal definition of ‘competent person’.
It’s consciously ambiguous. However, if you grab a leaflet from your Local Council, it states categorically what work has to be tested by a qualified person.

It’s really straightforward, if you straight up comprehend the English language and use that comprehension instead of what you believe it says.

 

[sphexx]

There’s no legal definition of ‘competent person’.
It’s consciously ambiguous. However, if you grab a leaflet from your Local Council, it states categorically what work has to be tested by a qualified person.

It’s really straightforward, if you straight up comprehend the English language and use that comprehension instead of what you believe it says.

This https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
Seems to me to say that “a competent person” means a “registered or qualified competent person”, really the word “competent” seems redundant here . Tha rest of the document seems to agree with what @onomatopoeia referred to above — ie new wiring back to the fuse box and bathroom stuff.

 

[Phil V]

This https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
Seems to me to say that “a competent person” means a “registered or qualified competent person”, really the word “competent” seems redundant here . Tha rest of the document seems to agree with what @onomatopoeia referred to above — ie new wiring back to the fuse box and bathroom stuff.

You want me to read 22 pages (I read 10years ago) ?

Can you do specific quotes with context.

ETA You’ll be looking for 3.7 which states that a certified competent person has to certify the works if theyre carried out by someone not registered.

3.8 on describes how you can request your local building control body to certify the works (the LA really don’t like that)

 

[sphexx]

You want me to read 22 pages (I read 10years ago) ?

Can you do specific quotes with context.

ETA You’ll be looking for 3.7 which states that a certified competent person has to certify the works if theyre carried out by someone not registered.

3.8 on describes how you can request your local building control body to certify the works (the LA really don’t like that)

You have remarkable recall if you read that 10 years ago however I think 3.7 is referring to work that is non notifiable:

“Non-notifiable work 2.7 Regulation 12(6A) sets out electrical installation work that is notifiable. All other electrical installation work is not notifiable – namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere. 2.8 Installing fixed electrical equipment is within the scope of Part P, even if the final connection is by a standard 13A plug and socket, but is notifiable only if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A). For example: a. installing a built-in cooker is not notifiable work unless a new cooker circuit is needed b. connecting an electric gate or garage door to an existing isolator switch is not notifiable work, but installing a new circuit from the consumer unit to the isolator is notifiable.
2.9 Installing prefabricated, modular wiring (for example for kitchen lighting systems) linked by plug and socket connectors is also within the scope of Part P, but again is notifiable only if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A).

Regulation 12(6A) states:
12.-(6A) A person intending to carry out building work in relation to which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement, is required to give a building notice or deposit full plans (except if (a) is applied or the work is under (b) as per Notification of work above). Notification is required where work consists of –

a. The installation of a new circuit.

b. The replacement of a consumer unit (fuse board).

c. Any addition or alteration to existing circuits in a special location.

In this regulation “special location” means –

a. Within a room containing a bath or shower, the space surrounding a bath tap or shower head, where the space extends –

1. Vertically from the finished floor level to –

i. a height of 2.25 metres; or

ii. the position of the shower head where it is attached to a wall or ceiling at a point higher than 2.25 metres from that level; and

2. Horizontally –

i. where there is a bath tub or shower tray, from the edge of the bath tub or shower tray to a distance of 0.6 metres; or

ii. where there is no bath tub or shower tray, from the centre point of the shower head

Sorry I didn’t quote before but the copying text from the online pdf was flaky. I’ve had to save it onto my iPad to copy satisfactorily

 

[Phil V]

You have remarkable recall if you read that 10 years ago however I think 3.7 is referring to work that is non notifiable:
...

3.1...
States quite clearly the responsibility for testing of notifiable work.

Seriously, I’m not making this up. You provided the link, you should have read it.

 

[sphexx]

3.1...
States quite clearly the responsibility for testing of notifiable work.

Seriously, I’m not making this up. You provided the link, you should have read it.

Absolutely, but non notifiable work such as the OP’s stair lights, unless they need a new wiring to the fuse box, do not have to be done by a competent registered or qualified person.

 

[Phil V]

Absolutely, but non notifiable work such as the OP’s stair lights, unless they need a new wiring to the fuse box, do not have to be done by a competent registered or qualified person.

But the only reason we’re having this discussion is because you chipped in with...

This https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...achment_data/file/441872/BR_PDF_AD_P_2013.pdf
Seems to me to say that “a competent person” means a “registered or qualified competent person”, really the word “competent” seems redundant here . Tha rest of the document seems to agree with what @onomatopoeia referred to above — ie new wiring back to the fuse box and bathroom stuff.

 

[sphexx]

I can’t really see what we are disagreeing about here, if anything

 

[onomatopoeia]

And yet it says here http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/partp.htm that electrical work needs to be done by a “competent person” to comply with Part P. Eg someone who not only understands how the circuit works but also has the ability to test and troubleshoot it if there is a problem. That doesn’t sound like the average diy-er to me.

Has this all changed recently? Because I’m pretty sure I read that diy work nowadays was restricted to changing out existing switches, light fittings and sockets?

It changed in 2013 and even before then you could install things like spurs (fused or not, depending on the number of sockets and number of spurs).

 

[ecoleman]

:banghead: Why do so many threads have to go this way?

 

[sphexx]

:banghead: Why do so many threads have to go this way?

Well ... if you mean going off at a tangent, you are doing it yourself with that question . The OP sparks off a related chain of thought in the reader (which I think happened to me here) and off we go.
I think the more problematic example is that when someone comes asking advice on (eg camera purchase or what lens to take on holiday) most of the advice illustrates what the helper would like to do rather than what the OP needs .
There, I’ve made it even worse .

 

[Byker28i]

Personally, I'd sort the electrics before any decorating. If Mr Bodgitt fitted it, it may be sub-standard, and even dangerous, and a qualified spark may condemn it. If the cabling is plastered/nailed in, it could get a bit messy with regards to fresh paint and paper.
I've seen some really scary wiring that was done on the cheap, you really need to get it checked. View attachment 123316

This - our houses previous owner was a keen DIY'er. It took us about 5 years to find and correct his work

 

[shreds]

And this year the Electrical Regs go from Edition 17 as amended, that date back ten years or so, to Edition 18 probably middle of the year…..the consultation on that finished last year.

Given that there have been some significant cases in which the electrics might be implicated, expect changes to push up the prices of getting work done and the demand for sparkies for a while afterwards. Leaving Europe will not affect the harmonisation changes that were already well established in this and other fields

 

[onomatopoeia]

:banghead: Why do so many threads have to go this way?

People post incorrect information, others (me in this case) post corrections outlining the accurate information where misinformation has previously been supplied, others then find something about that to have an argument over, etc etc.

 

[kendo1]

^ ... and then there is the problem of England and Wales, Scotland, and NI having different regs and building regs too!

 

[joxby]

No, the problem is you don't have a qualified electrician posting in this thread


oh.........darn