Am definitely thinking that I may possibly for sure contemplate a positively potential change of gear

[ScottB]

Yeah ... it's that confusing!!

After watching countless YouTube videos and reviews and reading/re-reading forum discussions I am no nearer to making a decision. My dilema is (I think) there's just too much choice out there. It's like trying to buy a plain ham salad sandwich, which bread, which ham, which salad, which butter !!! It never ends.

I currently have a Nikon D500 and a couple of great (IMO) lenses, the 200-500mm 5.6 zoom and the 500mm 5.6 PF, which for my main genre of wildlife are just awesome (again IMO). I want to switch to mirrorless (mainly due to weight and shutter noise) however the Nikon Z6ii and Z7ii do not get great reviews for wildlife autofocus and I just can't afford the Z9.

So, do I:

1) switch to one of the many great cameras out there with reliable tracking and bird eye detection systems; which means selling my lenses
2) buy the z6ii with it's silent shutter, better noise handling and video capabilities and learn how to make the most out of the cameras autofocusing limitations (remembering that my D500 doesn't have the above mentioned capabilities, and I still get great photos)
3) stick where I am; knowing and accepting that my camera shutter sounds like I take an old fashioned typewriter out with me, drawing equal amounts of scorn, sympathy and amusement from the 'modernity' of mirrorless owners

Then of course ... if I do switch systems ... which one? and how long before that system too becomes the 'new dinosaurs' of the bird hides?

Thoughts ... PLEASE ???

 

[gramps]

Other than "scorn, sympathy and amusement from the 'modernity' of mirrorless owners", what great photos have you missed by having the absolutely superb D500 and the other two great lenses? I suspect none at all!
Unless you can come up with a really good advantage to changing system or equipment I doubt that you will benefit in any way, with what you can afford.

 

[viewfromthenorth]

If you definitely maybe want to change, maybe wait a little bit until the unicorn-like Z8 is released? The official announcement that was subsequently withdrawn after a few hours suggested some z9 like capabilities in a Z6/Z7 size body.

Or just chop it all in for a different brand if there are equivalent lenses, and the costs make sense. If you perceive another brand does something better or has a capability that your current camera lacks, just change to that as you’ll soon get used to the different way of operating.

 

[snerkler]

Firstly I wouldn't worry too much about offending others with shutter noise, it's not exactly a new thing and not everyone can afford to swap systems everytime something new comes out, plus some people just prefer DSLRs over mirrorless.

Secondly, there's very few cameras out there where the electronic shutter is fast enough, or should I more correctly say with fast enough sensor readout, to shoot moving subjects without rolling shutter issues.

Thirdly, AFAIK no other manufacturer offers a similar lens to your 500mm f5.6 for the mirrorless system (I wish Sony would offer something like this) and so if you wanted to keep this lens your only option is Nikon and adapting it, limiting you to the Z9 if you want to use the electronic shutter and not run the risk of artefacts for moving subjects.

 

[woof woof]

Firstly I wouldn't give a monkeys about offending others with shutter noise, it's not exactly a new thing and not everyone can afford to swap systems everytime something new comes out, plus some people just prefer DSLRs over mirrorless.

Secondly, there's very few cameras out there where the electronic shutter is fast enough, or should I more correctly say with fast enough sensor readout, to shoot moving subjects without rolling shutter issues.

Thirdly, AFAIK no other manufacturer offers a similar lens to your 500mm f5.6 for the mirrorless system (I wish Sony would offer something like this) and so if you wanted to keep this lens your only option is Nikon and adapting it, limiting you to the Z9 if you want to use the electronic shutter and not run the risk of artefacts for moving subjects.

I think you should.

I don't want to spoil the enjoyment of others. Maybe that's an odd way to look at it in these "me first" days but there are definitely places and situations in which I'm not going to use any device which make a clearly audible noise.

 

[Chipper]

The RF100-500 is pretty good although I have not had many chances to use it since trading for it. The R7 [not a camera I have but a friend thinks it is great] would add to the focal length but it is not f2.8 so maybe just keep going with what you have unless weight is an issue. I chopped in my DSLRs as I wanted something lighter weight. Whilst the others in the hide [or wherever] take the mickey, you can smile benignly about all the money you have saved.... and, at times, I do miss the familiarity and speed of my 1DX2. And I am very pleased that I did not succumb to the charms of the R3.

 

[snerkler]

I think you should.

I don't want to spoil the enjoyment of others. Maybe that's an odd way to look at it in these "me first" days but there are definitely places and situations in which I'm not going to use any device which make a clearly audible noise.

Sorry that was just my blunt northerness, it's not meant quite as harsh as it comes across I've now amended it. That being said as you know I've recently shot kingfishers from a private hide no more than 5m away and two togs were shooting with loud shutters, it didn't bother the birds one bit

 

[woof woof]

Sorry that was just my blunt northerness, it's not meant quite as harsh as it comes across

Oh I'm northern too.

I suppose it's a personal choice but I really don't want to spoil the enjoyment of others. I'd rather just put the camera down. Actually I probably wouldn't need to as if I'm going somewhere where I think my A7 and the noise it makes could be an issue I take something else either as well or instead.

 

[snerkler]

Oh I'm northern too.

I suppose it's a personal choice but I really don't want to spoil the enjoyment of others. I'd rather just put the camera down. Actually I probably wouldn't need to as if I'm going somewhere where I think my A7 and the noise it makes could be an issue I take something else either as well or instead.

I've just amended my post further since you quoted it. I'm self conscious and as a result very aware of no wanting to upset others, however if your in a hide for photography you have to accept that there's likely to be shutter noise. It might be different if your sat with twitchers who are just there with binoculars or scopes, I could see that they might get annoyed with a 'machine gun' going off at the side of them

 

[Faldrax]

Just to comment on the other aspect you mentioned, that of saving weight.
Since you will be using the same lenses, as switch to (for example) a Z6ii would save you a mere 155g.
So while it is a saving, with mirrorless FF you only really notice a difference if you are shooting with small and light lenses - where the body makes a much large proportion of the overall weight.

 

[welshwizard645]

Stick with the D500, I do bird stuff with that and it's never been any bother - fieldcraft is the key, if the birds can see you they will be wary anyway. My old D3 shutter was rather noisy (but quieter compared with my pentax z-1p) and that never scared away the birds.

When the time comes to change, or if my D500 packs up, it will be for mythical Z8, or a cheap 'newish low-mileage' D500..

 

[myotis]

Yeah ... it's that confusing!!

After watching countless YouTube videos and reviews and reading/re-reading forum discussions I am no nearer to making a decision. My dilema is (I think) there's just too much choice out there. It's like trying to buy a plain ham salad sandwich, which bread, which ham, which salad, which butter !!! It never ends.

I currently have a Nikon D500 and a couple of great (IMO) lenses, the 200-500mm 5.6 zoom and the 500mm 5.6 PF, which for my main genre of wildlife are just awesome (again IMO). I want to switch to mirrorless (mainly due to weight and shutter noise) however the Nikon Z6ii and Z7ii do not get great reviews for wildlife autofocus and I just can't afford the Z9.

So, do I:

1) switch to one of the many great cameras out there with reliable tracking and bird eye detection systems; which means selling my lenses
2) buy the z6ii with it's silent shutter, better noise handling and video capabilities and learn how to make the most out of the cameras autofocusing limitations (remembering that my D500 doesn't have the above mentioned capabilities, and I still get great photos)
3) stick where I am; knowing and accepting that my camera shutter sounds like I take an old fashioned typewriter out with me, drawing equal amounts of scorn, sympathy and amusement from the 'modernity' of mirrorless owners

Then of course ... if I do switch systems ... which one? and how long before that system too becomes the 'new dinosaurs' of the bird hides?

Thoughts ... PLEASE ???

I wouldn't change camera systems. Indeed I am in a similar position to you, except I don't feel in any rush (or pressure) to change.

Manufacturers have always leap frogged each other with "some" features. And, the Z9 and the Nikon lens range is arguably the "best" wildlife "system" on the market (at the moment), if you can afford it.

The two lenses you already have are very good lenses, and even with the FTZ adaptor still perform extremely well in terms of AF, with no loss in quality.

I don't have a Z body, but, like you, I have read a lot of reviews, and those from the "most' experienced wildlife photographers suggest that while the AF of the Z6/7 can't fully match DSLRs (or the best of the mirrorless options) for birds in flight and very fast action, once you get them set up they are still very good for the majority of wildlife. I would look at Steve Perry's webs site, if you haven't already done so.

The Z7 III and Z6III can't be that far away, though it might be the end of the year, and it seems reasonable to assume these will bring Z9 type AF for wildlife. Nikon will have to compete with other makers in this price bracket.

The Z8, which we will probably see soon, will also probably be better for wildlife, but it seems it will be about £1000 more than the Z7 II and come in a "pro" style body which will be bigger and heavier than the Z6/7 body style. The focus of the Z8 will be high quality low ISO, and is unlikely to be as good as the Z9 at high ISOs.

Although the Z6II will be much better than the D500 for video and the silent shutter, the image noise benefit will depend on how well you adapt to getting closer to your subjects. There will be no, or little, noise benefit if you just end up cropping more with the FF camera to match the angle of view from the D500. Nor will you get any improved Dynamic Range. The Z6 II 24mp sensor when cropped to APS is also only giving you 10.5mp. You can avoid this loss in resolution by going for the Z7 II. To be fair the improved sensors/CPU in the newer cameras seem to be a bit better than the DSLRs. Though Ricci (at Nikon) said that for image quality the D850 was still fractionally better than the Z9 and for AF speed and low noise, the D6 was also still better than the Z9. FF still offers that bit more flexibility than a cropped sensor, of course

Given the costs of replacing your lenses in a new system (and the cost of a new body), and, given that within 12 months Nikon will probably give you want, and, given how good the D500 is, I would keep the D500, and supplement it with a Z6II. This would allow you to ease into the Z system. Put the 500mm on the D500 for flying birds and the Z6 on the 200-500 for more static subjects. Or just do nothing and see what Nikon bring out (which is what I am doing).

I would also get Steve Perry's guide to using the Z AF for wildlife (he does one guide for the Z9 and another for the other Z cameras)

Secrets To The Nikon Autofocus System: Mirrorless Edition – Backcountry Gallery Web Store

As regards, scorn sympathy and amusement from others. That seems something worthy of ignoring.

As an aside I rarely find the shutter noise on my D500 an issue. In hides, you can make a big difference to the noise level by not resting the camera on the hide. I also tend to shoot in very short bursts, which for some reason doesn't seem as noisy. BUT, I am also aware of not taking shots because I am worried the noise might disturb people in a hide (if I was the only photographer), or when I thought it might disturb an animal. I once ended up a few feet from a water rail that was collecting nesting material directly in front of me and taking it back to a more distant nest. I didn't take any photographs, for fear of upsetting its routine, and just enjoyed the experience !

As another aside, Fringer make an adapter to put Nikon F lenses on Fuji bodies, and I did at one time (as I like Fuji) think about a Fuji XH2s with a Fringer adapter as a stop gap until Nikon brought out a body that could replace the D500. A few people do wildlife with Fuji + Fringer + Nikon long lenses and the adapter seems to work extremely well. But I decded just to wait it out.

 

[ancient_mariner]

The general principle is to change kit when you know your present outfit is limiting what you can do and can identify what improvement the replacement will bring. Otherwise it's just 'new, shiny' which is fine but not sustainable.

 

[ScottB]

Thanks Graham, I really appreciate you taking the time to give such a comprehensive answer. I too, have been waiting for news from Nikon, as I actually love my lenses (especially the 500mm PF). Every time I think of switching systems it's the loss of those lenses that stop me.

I am also really happy with the D500, as no matter how many reviews I watch of the 'top' wildlife cameras, the D500 comes up time and again. I think I may have a case of FOMO (fear of missing out) on the new technologies that are coming onto the market.

I've been battling this dilema for about a year now, so I guess it's going to be an internal battle for a little while longer.

Once again .. thank you.

 

[ScottB]

Other than "scorn, sympathy and amusement from the 'modernity' of mirrorless owners", what great photos have you missed by having the absolutely superb D500 and the other two great lenses? I suspect none at all!
Unless you can come up with a really good advantage to changing system or equipment I doubt that you will benefit in any way, with what you can afford.

Thanks Gramps, nice to get a reality check every now and then .... and I genuinely mean that

 

[ScottB]

If you definitely maybe want to change, maybe wait a little bit until the unicorn-like Z8 is released? The official announcement that was subsequently withdrawn after a few hours suggested some z9 like capabilities in a Z6/Z7 size body.

Or just chop it all in for a different brand if there are equivalent lenses, and the costs make sense. If you perceive another brand does something better or has a capability that your current camera lacks, just change to that as you’ll soon get used to the different way of operating.

Thank Andy ... appreciate it

 

[ScottB]

Firstly I wouldn't worry too much about offending others with shutter noise, it's not exactly a new thing and not everyone can afford to swap systems everytime something new comes out, plus some people just prefer DSLRs over mirrorless.

Secondly, there's very few cameras out there where the electronic shutter is fast enough, or should I more correctly say with fast enough sensor readout, to shoot moving subjects without rolling shutter issues.

Thirdly, AFAIK no other manufacturer offers a similar lens to your 500mm f5.6 for the mirrorless system (I wish Sony would offer something like this) and so if you wanted to keep this lens your only option is Nikon and adapting it, limiting you to the Z9 if you want to use the electronic shutter and not run the risk of artefacts for moving subjects.

Thanks Toby, it's certainly that 500mm PF that has stopped me from changing in the past, and will most probably stop me from changing any time in the near future, it's just my internal dialogue tempting me to switch and try something new, whilst the other side of my brain tells me that what I have is already a great set up.

Guess the dialogue continues, hopefully with some other photographers thoughts to help me out

 

[ScottB]

The general principle is to change kit when you know your present outfit is limiting what you can do and can identify what improvement the replacement will bring. Otherwise it's just 'new, shiny' which is fine but not sustainable.

Thanks Toni, that's one of my worries, is this just a case of FOMO (fear of missing out) tempting me to switch from what is a perfectly good wildlife camera set up that has served me really well, or is the weight just getting too much for this old(er) body to carry around

 

[ScottB]

The RF100-500 is pretty good although I have not had many chances to use it since trading for it. The R7 [not a camera I have but a friend thinks it is great] would add to the focal length but it is not f2.8 so maybe just keep going with what you have unless weight is an issue. I chopped in my DSLRs as I wanted something lighter weight. Whilst the others in the hide [or wherever] take the mickey, you can smile benignly about all the money you have saved.... and, at times, I do miss the familiarity and speed of my 1DX2. And I am very pleased that I did not succumb to the charms of the R3.

Thanks Linda, I appreciate the reply. I think it's the weight that's getting to theses old bones, but I try to use my 500mm PF for walking around and my 200-500mm for when I know I'm going to be more static; like in a hide.

One of the other 'desirables' for me is IBIS, getting that lower shutter speed for more stationery subjects whilst out and about would be a great help. Just more thinking to do, I think

 

[ancient_mariner]

Thanks Toni, that's one of my worries, is this just a case of FOMO (fear of missing out) tempting me to switch from what is a perfectly good wildlife camera set up that has served me really well, or is the weight just getting too much for this old(er) body to carry around

4 years ago I swapped D610 for A7III. The improvement was enormous in many areas, not least because the Nikon was designed to be substandard and the Sony wasn't. Your D500 is a decent camera, and will always be so. Some mirrorless cameras will give substantially better AF, but if AF isn't a problem then there's no point fixing it.

 

[woof woof]

I've just amended my post further since you quoted it. I'm self conscious and as a result very aware of no wanting to upset others, however if your in a hide for photography you have to accept that there's likely to be shutter noise. It might be different if your sat with twitchers who are just there with binoculars or scopes, I could see that they might get annoyed with a 'machine gun' going off at the side of them

I'm not upset and I don't want to give that impression and equally don't want to upset you or anyone else.

When taking pictures I really don't want anyone to notice me not only as I am self conscious and don't want to draw attention to myself but also because I don't want to disturb the scene or spoil whatever is going on for anyone else. I suppose the biggest issue for me is when shooting indoors in public places like churches and museums or during performances or anywhere where the surroundings are generally quiet and the sound of a shutter may be noticed.

The worst example I've ever seen was on holiday once when a guy with a Canon DSLR came into an anteroom in a church and proceeded to mirror slap his merry way to such an extent that everyone apart from me left. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing echoed around the room and that behaviour is a million miles from anything I'd be comfortable with. In that instance or anything like it my A7 would stay in its bag but if I had one of my Panasonic cameras with me I would be happy to take some pictures with the electronic shutter.

 

[snerkler]

I'm not upset and I don't want to give that impression and equally don't want to upset you or anyone else.

When taking pictures I really don't want anyone to notice me not only as I am self conscious and don't want to draw attention to myself but also because I don't want to disturb the scene or spoil whatever is going on for anyone else. I suppose the biggest issue for me is when shooting indoors in public places like churches and museums or during performances or anywhere where the surroundings are generally quiet and the sound of a shutter may be noticed.

The worst example I've ever seen was on holiday once when a guy with a Canon DSLR came into an anteroom in a church and proceeded to mirror slap his merry way to such an extent that everyone apart from me left. I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing echoed around the room and that behaviour is a million miles from anything I'd be comfortable with. In that instance or anything like it my A7 would stay in its bag but if I had one of my Panasonic cameras with me I would be happy to take some pictures with the electronic shutter.

No Alan I didn’t get upset or take it that you were, however I agreed with what you said and I know that the way I ‘talk’ doesn’t always convey exactly what I mean

I do try to be as considerate as possible, to the point I often miss out on things myself, and there are scenarios such as the one you mentioned about the church where I wish people would be more considerate

 

[myotis]

Thanks Graham, I really appreciate you taking the time to give such a comprehensive answer. I too, have been waiting for news from Nikon, as I actually love my lenses (especially the 500mm PF). Every time I think of switching systems it's the loss of those lenses that stop me.

I am also really happy with the D500, as no matter how many reviews I watch of the 'top' wildlife cameras, the D500 comes up time and again. I think I may have a case of FOMO (fear of missing out) on the new technologies that are coming onto the market.

I've been battling this dilema for about a year now, so I guess it's going to be an internal battle for a little while longer.

Once again .. thank you.

Yes, just enjoy what you have for a little bit longer, the D500 plus your two lenses is still a fantastic birding kit.

For me, my biggest problems are a) getting close enough to the subject to fill the frame and b) with flying birds, finding the thing in the viewfinder and once found, keeping it there. A Z9 (other cameras are available) isn't going to help me with that, even if it will help me get more keepers, once I've solved my two major problems.

One of the things that I am really looking forward to with mirrorless is bird eye detect and being able to devote more time to composition and less time to manually trying to keep the focus point on the birds head. But even then, while it should give me more keepers, I'm not sure how much it will actually add to my enjoyment. I think I enjoy the experience as much, if not more than, the actual pictures.

As I don't like changing cameras, one of the good things about delaying my move into mirrorless is that by the time I get one, the technology will be that much better than it is today, and my "new" camera should last that much longer before needing replaced

 

[Faldrax]

....

For me, my biggest problems are a) getting close enough to the subject to fill the frame and b) with flying birds, finding the thing in the viewfinder and once found, keeping it there. A Z9 (other cameras are available) isn't going to help me with that, even if it will help me get more keepers, once I've solved my two major problems.
....

Actually, a Z9 (or other brands high end mirrorless) MIGHT help keeping the bird in the viewfinder.

With my old A900, the limitied number of AF points meant that when tracking a bird I had to also keep it under an AF point, or risk the lens suddenly trying to focus on something that wasn't there - so even if the bird as in the viewfinder it could get so out of focus that it was hard to track and get back in focus.

With the modern tracking AF, this should be much less of an issue (I've not had a chance to try out my new A7iv and 200-600 combo on BIF yet), so my tracking of the bird should be easier, as it will always be clearly visible if it's in frame.

 

[myotis]

Actually, a Z9 (or other brands high end mirrorless) MIGHT help keeping the bird in the viewfinder.

With my old A900, the limitied number of AF points meant that when tracking a bird I had to also keep it under an AF point, or risk the lens suddenly trying to focus on something that wasn't there - so even if the bird as in the viewfinder it could get so out of focus that it was hard to track and get back in focus.

With the modern tracking AF, this should be much less of an issue (I've not had a chance to try out my new A7iv and 200-600 combo on BIF yet), so my tracking of the bird should be easier, as it will always be clearly visible if it's in frame.

I understand the subtle point, but my problems are often much less subtle. Overall, however, I do agree that the latest generation of wildlife eye detect cameras make things much easier.

 

[snerkler]

I understand the subtle point, but my problems are often much less subtle. Overall, however, I do agree that the latest generation of wildlife eye detect cameras make things much easier.

I was blown away by how much difference bird eye af makes, it almost feels like cheating, however no level of sophistication of AF can make it easier to locate the BIF in the VF in the first place, especially with the longer lenses.

 

[myotis]

I was blown away by how much difference bird eye af makes, it almost feels like cheating, however no level of sophistication of AF can make it easier to locate the BIF in the VF in the first place, especially with the longer lenses.

I've seen enough POV examples of bird eye detect, to look forward to a new camera, one day, with eye detect. As I said in my original post, it should let me concentrate more on composition rather than focus points. As it is I am constantly toggling a single focus point around the screen, or switching to manual focus, as a bird moves around within my chosen composition.

 

[Bristolian]

If you definitely maybe want to change, maybe wait a little bit until the unicorn-like Z8 is released? The official announcement that was subsequently withdrawn after a few hours suggested some z9 like capabilities in a Z6/Z7 size body.

Or just chop it all in for a different brand if there are equivalent lenses, and the costs make sense. If you perceive another brand does something better or has a capability that your current camera lacks, just change to that as you’ll soon get used to the different way of operating.

This was "withdrawn" because it was entirely faked

 

[ScottB]

Thanks everyone for the kind responses and great input from you all, I really do appreciate it

 

[ScottB]

Just to comment on the other aspect you mentioned, that of saving weight.
Since you will be using the same lenses, as switch to (for example) a Z6ii would save you a mere 155g.
So while it is a saving, with mirrorless FF you only really notice a difference if you are shooting with small and light lenses - where the body makes a much large proportion of the overall weight.

Thanks bud, I must admit I didn't realise it was such a small difference in weight, guess I should do better research rather than going by a 'feeling' that it would be significantly lighter lol

 

[ScottB]

So today I went out with my 'typewriter' shutter and founds a couple of Tawny Owls to photo. The first owl was asleep when I arrived, but woke when I took my first photo or two, opened it's eyes fully on the 4th photo and flew off sharpish afterwards.

I guess this raises 2 issues for me, firstly I disturbed the owl from it's rest during the day; which I am not proud off, knowing that I should really have retreated as soon as it's eyes started to open, it was just too tempting when I'd put so much effort into finding it. And, secondly if my shutter was quieter would my research on location and careful approach work have given me longer to photograph this beautiful bird?

Taken with my Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and with my D500

 

[snerkler]

So today I went out with my 'typewriter' shutter and founds a couple of Tawny Owls to photo. The first owl was asleep when I arrived, but woke when I took my first photo or two, opened it's eyes fully on the 4th photo and flew off sharpish afterwards.

I guess this raises 2 issues for me, firstly I disturbed the owl from it's rest during the day; which I am not proud off, knowing that I should really have retreated as soon as it's eyes started to open, it was just too tempting when I'd put so much effort into finding it. And, secondly if my shutter was quieter would my research on location and careful approach work have given me longer to photograph this beautiful bird?

Taken with my Nikkor 200-500mm zoom, and with my D500

If it was indeed your shutter that woke it then obviously a silent shutter wouldn’t have done so. How much closer or longer you could have been there without disturbing it who knows

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

I think you should.

I don't want to spoil the enjoyment of others. Maybe that's an odd way to look at it in these "me first" days but there are definitely places and situations in which I'm not going to use any device which make a clearly audible noise.

It's a camera, not a pneumatic drill

 

[PeteStewardson]

I wouldn't even consider moving from a D500 to a Z6/7ii, you're dropping a huge level in AF capabilities. Even if you used single point or dynamic AF on the Z6ii it would be no where near as capable as the D500. I'd disagree with the comment above than the Nikon Z9 and the system is the best wildlife setup out there. Even the Canon R5 is better on AF than the Z9, leaving the advantage being the couple of Z telephotos with teleconverters built in or the 800/6.3 etc as the only real thing left. Not much of an advantage if the camera can't track the subject anyway.

As an owner of a Z9, there are things that I'm now used to that I wouldn't get anywhere else, but if I hadn't had the Z9 for 14 months I don't think I'd miss them.