A rather bizzare thought

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ujjwaldey8165

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Ujjwal
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This is possible a very silly question, so please shut me up if needed.

The question in short form : Is there a software which simulates the darkroom printing in the wet process?


What I really mean

I sort of understand the darkroom process for printing though I have never done any ( I have read up loads of book on it, and simulated the process in my mind. Dont ask me why, but I love to read up 'how to do' things, even though I dont them myself)

The key process are ( after the test strip is done)

Crop , if wanted
Choose the grade of paper
Expose for the desired time

Develop the paper for the desired period of time ( as suggested my the manufacturer, plus or minus)

Fix, wash dry etc

Advanced processes are

Dodge & burn
Multiple exposure


Now is there a software which simulates these variables only and does it in the way one would have done it in a darkroom, only digitally ( i.e allows to play around with those and only those processes that I can do it in real life and exactly the same way). I am not suggesting a graphic simulation of putting the paper in the tray, washing etc, I am suggesting that the software only allows me to choose and alter those variables that I can choose and alter in a darkroom. In other words a digital process that mimics the analog process only.

Or has the digital process and the analog process become very very different; and what I am looking for is a stupid idea that no one else wants.

Why I am thinking this?

1. I am thinking of starting to develop at home; but not print. That leaves me with the only other option, scanning. Now here is where this software comes in. I scan the negative in; so I have a digital negative. And then do in the computer, what I would have done in the darkroom.

2. It wil be fun to have such a piece of software to see what can be done without infinite digital control.

Again, if the thinking has a fundamental flaw, please tell me

Ujjwal
 
Haha - I can see game developers falling over themselves to secure the rights to this idea :lol:
 
The thing is with the right amount of practise and skill you can do most of the digital trickery in the darkroom, it just takes longer. You could always continue using Photoshop and just ignore the stuff you don't want to use. What in particular don't you want to be able to do?
 
Well chris, for example, lets take papers. I understand there are 5 basic grades of paper ( hard to soft). Now if I was doing darkroom, i would choose one of them and do the printing. I dont know if softwares allow me to choose a type of paper.

On the other hand, there is no contrast, brightness gamma curve adjustment in a darkroom ( I havent used any s/w except a free of-the-net one a couple of times, so I dont know what else a s/w allows to do). And I am not sure there is anything exactly similar
I understand you can achieve the same result as a s/w by doing something else in the darkroom. I was trying to findout if there is a s/w which allows me to do that something else rather than curve setting and so on.

What I was after is a s/w that maps the variables ( paper type, exposure time etc etc ) in exactly the same way as its done in a darkroom; so doing it in a s/w will be no different at all compared to a darkroom ( except offcourse doing them physically)

Ekimeno, I am guessing thats your kind way of saying : dont faff :p:p:p
 
Fundamental Flaw - The Scan

Whilst scans do transfer film characteristics to a certain extent, they don't mimic a wet print, so the wet print from a digitally enhanced negative ideal, falls down straight away with the scan.
Scans always seem harsh & coarser than their wet print counterparts, among other things.
I think wet prints and ink jet prints are two different media.
 
Sure Joxby, I take your point about that ( aside from the counterargument that ink printing will improve etc).

But the basic question is about the availability of such a software, which limits and mimics the variables that are avilable in a darkroom for editing on a digital platform.

Just as an example : say I scan in a negative and tell the software : use grade 3 paper, expose for 3 seconds, and then develop for 3 minutes etc etc...and based on those parameters it creates a positive image on the computer


I think the answer is : No, but I was just making sure.......
 
Ujjwal,

From the limited printing i have done (and a couple of workshops), PS is in fact based on wet darkroom techniques. You can control exposure, you can dodge and burn, you can set contrast (that you use filters for in a wet darkroom). Not sure about grade of paper but im sure PS has something equivalent.

The guy who runs my local darkroom, told me that most of PS tools were simply lifted from PS.

Stav.
 
Ah, now we are getting somewhere. The question then is : are the choices that photposhop offer the same as that a darkroom offers.

Lets take the example of filters for contrast. Does darkroom allow me to choose the filters available in real life ; and then apply the effect that would have happened in the darkroom; or is it then a contrast curve that I have to play with?

I am looking for a software that allows the former.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
Sure Joxby, I take your point about that ( aside from the counterargument that ink printing will improve etc).

But the basic question is about the availability of such a software, which limits and mimics the variables that are avilable in a darkroom for editing on a digital platform.

Just as an example : say I scan in a negative and tell the software : use grade 3 paper, expose for 3 seconds, and then develop for 3 minutes etc etc...and based on those parameters it creates a positive image on the computer


I think the answer is : No, but I was just making sure.......
Click to expand...


Oh I see...
I'm not saying one print is better than the other btw, they're just different.
So its simulation software...:)





















stop faffing and build a darkroom...
 
yup thats what I am after

P.S : I read your tagline. I would have built one, but it will need some serious plumbing etc. This is where I miss India : get a handyman ; everything sorted. Get a guy for a week , he'll teach you the darkroom techniques. :D:D
 
Cyprio is pretty much correct. Curves and contrast adjustment allow you to mimick the effects of using multigrade papers. You are correct saying that you can chose paper between certain grades (theoretically grades 00 to 5, with higher numbers being higher contrast), but you can also get paper that can be used at ANY grade, depending on the colour filter you use. Not only that, but you can change filter half way through to get the effects of both grades on the same bit of paper. This is the same as using local contrast adjustment in s/w.

Dodging and burning is lifted directly from the darkroom and just makes certain areas darker or lighter. Exposure more generally can be controlled either via the darkness slider or levels adjustment. Unsharp mask is lifted directly from darkroom printing.

Cloning is probably the most extreme thing that s/w has made possible, although even then the wet print masters of yesterday were pretty good (removal of Trotsky from all public photographs is a good example).

I wouldn't worry too much about it to be honest, but if you are really interested in the wet process I would defo recommend you sign up for some kind of course at a local college, it will be an interesting experience.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
Ah, now we are getting somewhere. The question then is : are the choices that photposhop offer the same as that a darkroom offers.

Lets take the example of filters for contrast. Does darkroom allow me to choose the filters available in real life ; and then apply the effect that would have happened in the darkroom; or is it then a contrast curve that I have to play with?

I am looking for a software that allows the former.
Click to expand...

Just had a quick look at PS and i would guess that you would use sliders. I couldnt see an option for different filters for example, just a contrast slider. But then again i am no expert in PS. Perhaps you are better off posting in another section of the forums?

But just out of interest what difference does the method make make? If you really want to go through the print process, just go to a darkroom! :)
 
Good point.

Going to a darkroom is a bit difficult at the moment for me ( I travel 1.5 hours each way to office and back; and making one at home means quite a bit of plumbing)

So I was simply exploring the possibility of mimicing the actual darkroom process ( not via sliders etc) by a s/w which acts as a Darkroom simulator, before I make a leap of setting up a darkroom.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
Good point.

Going to a darkroom is a bit difficult at the moment for me ( I travel 1.5 hours each way to office and back; and making one at home means quite a bit of plumbing)

So I was simply exploring the possibility of mimicing the actual darkroom process ( not via sliders etc) by a s/w which acts as a Darkroom simulator, before I make a leap of setting up a darkroom.
Click to expand...

Are there no local colleges or darkrooms near you for hire?
 
Could be; but I somehow doubt if they will be open after 7, when I reach back.
 
I think you can mimic the darkroom process but as Joxby pointed out the flaw is the scan simpley because it will accentuate the grain structure espically in high ISO films. But that as aside

You can take your image, use the selection tool then using Levels simulate burn/dodge process.
Curves can be used to change the contrast of the image to simulate Paper Grades
You can get Gloss, Perl, Warmtone inkjet papers.

There is even add on Software that will simulate all your favorite film grains (forget which one) and they can work ok of scanned images but really they are designed for the digi world.

If you have everthing calibrated then you may not need to do test prints
And if you have an expensive printer Epson 3800 series then you can get close to what you want.

But having said all that there is a big difference between ink jet and wet printing.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
Going to a darkroom is a bit difficult at the moment for me ( I travel 1.5 hours each way to office and back; and making one at home means quite a bit of plumbing)
Click to expand...

I used my darkroom for two years before I plumbed in a water supply and another year before I put in a waste pipe so it's not essential (just nice).

And you don't want to pay someone to do plumbing - just do it yourself.


Steve.
 
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