A project for a client, a lesson for my son. part 1

Kodiak Qc

Suspended / Banned
Messages
20,285
Name
French Canadian living in Europe since 1989!
Edit My Images
Yes

— Being a new guy on the block, this post will be my introduction… if I may.

A German client is interested in our "glasswork" photography and asked for a test shot.
We waited two days to get hold of the samples and needed sometime to get the take
since, at the same time, I thought it could be a good chance for my son to learn to
work with glass.


My son, Olivier, is 17 and has been helping me in the location and studio works for the
last 4 years. I thing he got the bug! …will post his projects soon.

To part 2:
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/a-project-for-a-client-a-lesson-for-my-son-part-2.602844/
 
Last edited:
That's brilliant, and my beer addled brain is unable to work out the lighting.

4 pints suggests it's a composite, but a sober look might be able to see it better.
 
Very nicely done.
I'm falling asleep at the keyboard so some of the lighting isn't making sense to me.
Would be interested in seeing your setup for the shot.

I once knew a German who was very into his glass and hated most photos of it. Work with your client to find out what they like and loath. Do that and then send in your own interpretation alongside to hedge your bets.

For my tastes, I find the table a distraction. Its not as pure and clean as the glass. Alternatively, it does not provide sufficient contrast of a surface with character. The latter may be a distraction to your brief however. Depends on if you are trying to set a mood or purely showcase the beauty of glass.
With mood, is colour an asset or hindrance? Do you want to inject some vibrancy or aim for simple elegance?
Is the overall brightness level what your client desires?
 
That's brilliant, and my beer addled brain is unable to work out the lighting.
4 pints suggests it's a composite, but a sober look might be able to see it better.

• Hey Phil,
The shoot was not planned as a composite but as SOOC… as much as possible. The main
prouesse in this being the control of any specular highlights. The goal was to demonstrate
the German liquor distributor that I could apply my "glass work" to his purpose and intent.

Olivier got to learn to use some little trade secrets… that are for him alone!
Please tell me what will be the results of your next sober look at it. ;-)
 
Very nicely done.
… so some of the lighting isn't making sense to me.
Would be interested in seeing your setup for the shot.

Well, this one will not be possible unless Olivier gives it away! Just remember
it was done in one single capture and planned as SOOC… as much as possible.
 
Have got to ask what the point of sharing this post is. You clearly don't want to discuss the lighting set up, which I can understand in the "TALK LIGHTING AND STUDIO" section :banghead:

Which is a shame as this is clearly a great shot and you obviously have good knowledge which would be of benefit to others.

Just my 2p
 
I'd love to give feedback, but it's a secret :cautious:

Have got to ask what the point of sharing this post is. You clearly don't want to discuss the lighting set up, which I can understand in the "TALK LIGHTING AND STUDIO" section :banghead:
Which is a shame as this is clearly a great shot and you obviously have good knowledge which would be of benefit to others. Just my 2p

Gentlemen,
The main reason for my presence here is inspiration! I could take what I want as an
unregistered guest and leave without a trace, not get involved in anything with anyone…
but I do get involved because it's my passion too. I withhold the trade secrets but I will
share techniques and experiences, and other kinds of inspiration. No offence meant.
 
None taken here fella !
From what postings I have read of yours you have been most helpful and infromative.

Gaz
 




Gentlemen,
The main reason for my presence here is inspiration! I could take what I want as an
unregistered guest and leave without a trace, not get involved in anything with anyone…
but I do get involved because it's my passion too. I withhold the trade secrets but I will
share techniques and experiences, and other kinds of inspiration. No offence meant.

No offence taken. Just a long day at the office.

It is an aspirational shot as I like how it's lit and it's very well done. I'm guessing SOOC as much as possible means that you've cloned out lights that were very close in the shot?

Would be interested to hear the technique (sans trade secrets)!

Thanks

Shaheed
 
No offence taken.
Feels good to read that…

I'm guessing SOOC as much as possible means that you've cloned out lights that were very close in the shot?
Not exactly… SOOC means what it says. Of course, one may retouch eventual
dust particles that sneaked back on the set though it was carefully cleaned prior
to the shoot and the usual treatment that is the trademark of a studio in all its
production.

Would be interested to hear the technique (sans trade secrets)!
Sans trade secrets? If the glass can see it, it will reflect it!
 
Last edited:
SOOC mean what it says! Could you explain the abbreviation to a newbie please.
 
I love everything apart from the distortion to the glasses at the back. Could you lay them out in a curve, vee or diagonal line rather than straight on??. I also saw a vid by Phil McCordall where he placed an identicle glass upside down under the glass (base to base) being shot. This gave the effect of a reflection plus allowed him to get light modifiers etc under the glass and close in.

Interesting stuff.
 
I love everything apart from the distortion to the glasses at the back.
There is no distortion in the shot! What you observe is a collection of cheap glassware
with surely has plenty of defects. Their only qualities are to be clean and clear glass.

Could you lay them out in a curve, vee or diagonal line rather than straight on??.
For the intent here, showing our work with glass, any line or layout could have been used.

I also saw a vid by Phil McCordall where he placed an identicle glass upside down under the glass (base to base) being shot. This gave the effect of a reflection plus allowed him to get light modifiers etc under the glass and close in. Interesting stuff.
I know this friendly, funny ol' chap… very resourceful!

Thanks for your comments.
 
Lovely shot, I'm guessing backlit through translum or similar on black polished wood for setup?

Only thing for me is I'm not a fan of the rainbowy prism effect at the bottom of backlit glasses, one of the few occasion where selective colour is my preference.

I'm hopefully securing a small studio space soon so would love to get back to practicing more product stuff, I'd love to get more in to glass and beverage photography.
 

Gentlemen,
The main reason for my presence here is inspiration! I could take what I want as an
unregistered guest and leave without a trace, not get involved in anything with anyone…
but I do get involved because it's my passion too. I withhold the trade secrets but I will
share techniques and experiences, and other kinds of inspiration. No offence meant.

Fearing the competition?

This is an interesting cross between darkfield and brightfield lighting. I'm guessing that there are black panels just out of shot to either side and you've fired a single strobe in a standard reflector at some diffusion fabric behind the glasses from fairly close range. There seems to be some highlights just inside the dark edges of the outer glasses, which suggest that the rest of the room is quite bright. I also suspect you've put a black panel over the top of the glasses too, to emphasise the rims.

I think I might be able to see the edge of a softbox at the bottom corner of the right most glass, and then there's another highlight just beyond it. Perhaps you've done something eccentric like somehow constrain the beam of light in a softbox to project a soft-edged spot on the outer diffuser?

But... there's not much point me guessing 'cos you're probably not going to tell us.
 
Oh, I forgot to add.. presumably the secret bit is how you've kept the reflection of the camera from appearing in a glass? The usual way is to leave only a tiny window in a card/flag to shoot through but even that leaves a trace. The only techniques I can think of for avoiding it are
  1. Get the angles right. It looks as though that may not be possible in this case but you may have managed to hide the reflection(s) in the shadows at the base of the glass(s)
  2. Shoot through a piece of polarizing material - which doesn't sound very likely to me. There are cases where fitting both light and lens with polarizing material is useful but I'd be a little surprised if that's what you've done.
  3. Even more unlikely: shoot through a one-way mirror
  4. Photoshop
Go on, tell us, or I'll have to try to reproduce it myself and I've got better things to do :)

Or we could just wait for Garry to tell me how far off the mark I am.
 
Fearing the competition? I share my passion not my trade.

This is an interesting cross between darkfield and brightfield lighting. I'm guessing
that there are black panels just out of shot to either side and you've fired a single
strobe in a standard reflector at some diffusion fabric behind the glasses from fairly
close range. There seems to be some highlights just inside the dark edges of the
outer glasses, which suggest that the rest of the room is quite bright. I also suspect
you've put a black panel over the top of the glasses too, to emphasise the rims.

I think I might be able to see the edge of a soft box NO SOFTBOX USED HERE!
at the bottom corner of the right most glass, and then there's another highlight just
beyond it. Perhaps you've done something eccentric like somehow constrain the
beam of light in a softbox to project a soft-edged spot on the outer diffuser?


But... there's not much point me guessing 'cos you're probably not going to tell us.
On the contrary, guessing is possibly your ONLY chance to get it! …your only
chance cause I'm not going to tell.

Oh, I forgot to add.. presumably the secret bit is how you've kept the reflection of
the camera from appearing in a glass? The usual way is to leave only a tiny window
in a card/flag to shoot through but even that leaves a trace. The only techniques I
can think of for avoiding it are

1. Get the angles right. It looks as though that may not be possible in this case
but you may have managed to hide the reflection(s) in the shadows at the base
of the glass(s)
Well, it's all a matter of incidence.

2. Shoot through a piece of polarizing material - which doesn't sound very likely
to me. There are cases where fitting both light and lens with polarizing material
is useful but I'd be a little surprised if that's what you've done.
No Polarizing!

3. Even more unlikely: shoot through a one-way mirror Nope.
4. Photoshop No Photoshop, I sold my master Collection and I use a much
newer pixel processor!
Go on, tell us, or I'll have to try to reproduce it myself and I've got better things to do :)
Well, if you have better to do, why bother to ask? ;-)
Or we could just wait for Garry to tell me how far off the mark I am. Who is Garry?
 
Last edited:
Who is Spartacus?
I AM SPARTACUS!
Or just plain Garry:)

I don't like to rain on other people's parades, but as you won't tell your secrets...
We don't and can't photography glasss, because it's invisible. What we can and do photography is the interuptions to the light caused by the glass being there, which is what you've done here rather effectively and well..
1. Refracted light, which of course is always present with glass shapes and which sends light off in all sorts of different but entirely predictable directions.
2. Transmitted light, bounced off of the background and which then travels towards the lens, passing through the subject on the way. Because all of the light is transmitted and none is reflected, there can be no specular highlights to worry about (there can and will be transmitted highlights caused by the lens-like qualities of the glass bases, but see 4 below)
3. The light reflected from the background was probably from a fresnel spot but can just as easily be from a defocussed focussing spot, I can't say which because of the PP work on the background, not that it matters anyway.
4. The camera was placed just high enough to add depth and create those nice semi-reflections in the product base, not high enough to create obvious perspective distortion. No internal reflections are showing because the internal reflections that are showing are heading off away from the lens, not towards it, hence the reference to (angles of) incidence.

A good, workmanlike job which anyone who understands light could also do - which is why I'm always banging on about knowledge and technique:)
 



Gentlemen,
The main reason for my presence here is inspiration! I could take what I want as an
unregistered guest and leave without a trace, not get involved in anything with anyone…
but I do get involved because it's my passion too. I withhold the trade secrets but I will
share techniques and experiences, and other kinds of inspiration. No offence meant.

Well I for one am not inspired by your attitude, offence taken

This is a site for sharing not willy waggling
 
Well I for one am not inspired by your attitude, offence taken.
This is a site for sharing not willy waggling …had to google that!

Sharing, right?

Try reading Garry's mature post (in thoughts and language), where he honestly
shared enough to inspire you with some grown up thinking, clever equations and

plausible conclusions… and all this in an impeccable language (as much as I can
judge the thinking and appreciate the used English language!)

That post, as the one one from CraigDHD, contains enough drive, experience, and
knowledge to grow any juvenile attitude into a mature one, at least in photography!


 

Sharing, right?

Try reading Garry's mature post (in thoughts and language), where he honestly
shared enough to inspire you with some grown up thinking, clever equations and

plausible conclusions… and all this in an impeccable language (as much as I can
judge the thinking and appreciate the used English language!)

That post, as the one one from CraigDHD, contains enough drive, experience, and
knowledge to grow any juvenile attitude into a mature one, at least in photography!


Sharing an image is not sharing knowledge, thankfully we have people like Garry that do make the effort to share their years of experience and knowledge. One of the things that I do in my professional career as an educator is not to try to show how good I am, but rather to show students how good they can be. Knowledge is most powerful when shared, I learnt that when I was a young juvenile and still believe it many many years later as a mature adult. As a soldier I learnt to call a spade a spade, and still do where it is needed.
 

By their reactions, interactions and questions, forum members gave me the feeling that my
prestation (this is a French word that I cannot translate) here is not seen as willy waggling.
 
This is the TALK lighting & studio section, clue is in the title, it is where we share how things were lit i.e. the trade secrets, there are other sections for "like" collectors, so to say on more than one occasion you will not be sharing those, along with the "No offence meant" which in english is often generally accepted to mean that offence was meant (else why would you mention it) is the "willy waggling" - if this were Garry then the image would have been either the intro to a posting about how it was done for general info or in answer to a question to demonstrate a technique and then said technique would be described. Always good to see good lighting techniques used but as said in this section it is normal to explain how they were achieved.
 

I did specifically ask somewhere "what is the best place to post table top work?"

I got no answer as of yet… so I guessed and… sorry, I guest wrong.

—"No offence meant" which in english is often generally accepted to mean that offence was meant…
Sorry again, I obviously do not master your language to appreciate and/or use this expression any
other way than the way I used it. In my French language culture: it means what it says and it says
what it means, no twist, no play, just straight.
 
The devils in the detail IMO and I would have thoroughly cleaned the black perspex base first.

The only issue I have with glassware shot in this fashion is the way the light falls of when you backlight through perspex (or trace) with a gridded reflector. The glass in the central hot spot is nice and white but as the light falls off the glassware on the perimeter of the shot goes a very dirty grey. IMO the two glasses on the LHS of the shot with the nice highlight down are the only two I actually like the lighting on as the rest look like lifeless silhouettes. While glass is a translucent material, it also has a surface quality missing in all but two of the glasses in the shot. Additionally I think the decals on the glass are all way under exposed, especially the white(?) Rey Martin logo looking black and the Grants almost impossible to recognise as red.

Hope you see this as constructive criticism for next time.
.
 
Well I for one am not inspired by your attitude, offence taken

This is a site for sharing not willy waggling

Ditto. You've joined the forum and as an opening post you've effectively said 'I'm new here, I'm cleverer than you and I'm not going to tell you how to get as good as me'.
I can't recall seeing another post on TP where someone shared an image and then refused to say how they created it. The other members here are incredibly generous with their time and knowledge.

I can't see what your post was for other than to show off; that's what flickr is for.
 
Last edited:
… /
 
Ditto. You've joined the forum and as an opening post you've effectively said 'I'm new here, I'm cleverer than you and I'm not going to tell you how to get as good as me'.
I can't recall seeing another post on TP where someone shared an image and then refused to say how they created it. The other members here are incredibly generous with their time and knowledge.

I can't see what your post was for other than to show off; that's what flickr is for.

Whatever your intention Daniel, that is rather how it comes across. This is a place for sharing and growing knowledge, and you never know, you might learn something too ;)

And in all honesty, why not divulge these tricks of the trade? You obviously have a lot to give and what possible harm could it do? IMHO, it can only enhance your reputation.
 
Sitting on the fence statement (I do it more in real life than you'd think)
Daniel's been quite an interesting new member, this thread unfortunately comes across a little as described above, which I don't believe is intentional and possibly owes a little of that to translation.

I'm hoping to see more of what he's shot, and maybe if they're in the right photo-sharing sections they won't cause the same dramas.

It'd also be nice to see him in the technical sections sharing some of his experiences and techniques too ;)
 
There is nothing to fear from sharing your trade, even if you included step by step instructions, I would make an image worth <5% of yours.

Most photographers I've come across are sharers of information, techniques, etc... I've been on workshops where the trainers gives out information about the techniques that made them known, you look at YouTube and not forgetting the amazing regulars on here. That's probably why it's strange when someone posts and not willing to describe how an image was achieved.
 
Sitting on the fence statement (I do it more in real life than you'd think)
Daniel's been quite an interesting new member, this thread unfortunately comes across a little as described above, which I don't believe is intentional and possibly owes a little of that to translation.

I'm hoping to see more of what he's shot, and maybe if they're in the right photo-sharing sections they won't cause the same dramas.

It'd also be nice to see him in the technical sections sharing some of his experiences and techniques too ;)
I agree.
FWIW, there aren't really any 'trade secrets' in this game, just a number of "old school" people who believe that they need to protect their "unique" skills by pretending that lighting is a black art that is only open to the few who have been formally trained and who have paid their dues by working as assistants for many years - something that I used to encounter all the time when I was a trainee, but fortunately fairly rare today.

Of course, although knowledge is key, and although literally anyone can achieve the knowledge via study, experience is a factor too, but all that experience really does is to discard some of the techniques that really can't work in a given situation, which cuts out most of the wasted time. As an example of this, the OP used his experience to avoid unwanted specular highlights in the glass by not using reflected light for this subject.
Speaking personally, shortly before I took over the lighting forum on www.photo.net, many years ago now, another commercial photographer, Brooks Short, started a weekly series of "Lighting Themes" in which he explained, demonstrated and proved how to deal with a very wide range of lighting challenges, and the membership could then ask question and, more importantly, contribute their own efforts. It was brilliantly effective as a learning tool and went a long way to dispel the lighting myths that so many people had, and to prove that lighting is just a combination of easily-learned knowledge, technique and art. By revealing the so-called trade secrets, we showed people that lighting is in fact pretty easy and that anyone can do it.

Of course, lines have now become blurred by image PP, because far too many people post work that owes more to PP than to photographic technique, and this can help to mask faults, and because many people just won't spend a reasonable amount of money on proper lighting equipment (although they're happy to spend thousands on high end cameras and lenses that they often don't need to have).

However the OP is seen by some members here, his photo was produced using established (if very simple) techniques that relied on knowledge, technique and attention to detail, not on image manipulation and I'm sure that he has a lot to contribute to this forum.
 
Clearly your pretty good at what you do but im beginning to think that this is not the community for you, which is a shame, for us and you.
 
...

Of course, lines have now become blurred by image PP, because far too many people post work that owes more to PP than to photographic technique, and this can help to mask faults, and because many people just won't spend a reasonable amount of money on proper lighting equipment (although they're happy to spend thousands on high end cameras and lenses that they often don't need to have)...
Just quoted because it reminded me of the new member here last year who'd bought a d800e and wanted a lens for £150 and had no budget at all for lighting, but he was setting up a product photography business (he'd already got the website set up). He got the hump when I told him he'd spent his budget in the wrong place, I wonder if he sold his camera?
 
Sitting on the fence statement (I do it more in real life than you'd think)
Daniel's been quite an interesting new member, this thread unfortunately comes across a little as described above, which I don't believe is intentional and possibly owes a little of that to translation.

I'm hoping to see more of what he's shot, and maybe if they're in the right photo-sharing sections they won't cause the same dramas.

It'd also be nice to see him in the technical sections sharing some of his experiences and techniques too ;)

Agreed. I shall get back on the fence for a bit.
 
Whatever your intention Daniel, that is rather how it comes across. This is a place for sharing and growing knowledge, and you never know, you might learn something too ;)

And in all honesty, why not divulge these tricks of the trade? You obviously have a lot to give and what possible harm could it do? IMHO, it can only enhance your reputation.


The reason I posted my comments was because I have come across this before with speakers of another language whilst teaching and therefore felt it was important that @Kodiak Qc be made aware of the fact that their comments are likely to be interpreted differently, not to scare him away but more in the hope that he will explain and I wholeheartedly echo Richards comments

Mike
 
I have personally learned something from every contributor in this thread, this section is almost certainly the one I've learnt most from since joining TP.

Though deserving of special mention @mike weeks has also gone out of his way to help me with other business areas too and @Garry Edwards is a curmudgeonly old bloke ;) who's genuinely a joy to spend time with and I've never met anyone more willing to share their knowledge.
 
Back
Top