5D4 vs 1DX......

Mr Pid

Mr Pid

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Hey guys, just thought I would share my experiences so far with the 5D4 compared to my 1DX.

I mostly shoot Wildlife and Airshows, just for fun, having previous been a wedding photographer in a former life.

I have my 400mm DO IS ii with 1.4x iii tele attached to the 5D4 which I primarily use for wildlife (early sunrise and dusk for Roe Deer).

I have my 100-400mm tele IS ii attached to my 1DX mostly for action work, sports and airshows.

Both lenses are shot on AF mode 3, the cameras are set up as close as possible in Manual (or shutter priority for air shows)

I upgraded my old 7D ii for the 5D4 and have never looked back.

I took both to the air show at Abingdon a couple of weeks ago. The conditions were horrid, shooting into the sun with massive heat haze, keepers were few and far between.

I noticed though that the 1DX had a far higher rate of keepers than the 5D4, which appeared a little soft. Even the same images, at the same settings were sharp on one, but slight off on the 5D4.

My first thought would be that most of the planes were prop planes so shooting at a low shutter speed to get the prop blur would have a large impact on an effective 560mm focal length compared to a max 400mm focal length, plus they are moving, the fastest shutter speed used was 1/400. Also the higher pixel count of the 5D4 demands that you shoot it a little faster to get crisper images. (iso 100-400)

However, with the one jet that was flying i managed to crank up the shutter to 1/3200 but the 1DX still seemed sharper than the 5D4... (iso100-400 F5.6)

For wildlife though, the same set up on the 5D4 gives amazingly sharp images, still at 1/400 (F5.6 iso 1600). I can even put a 2x iii tele on and get razor sharp images at dawn in awful light (F8 iso3200). The 1DX however, did not perform quite so well for wildlife on the same settings.

I need to do the AFMA set up, but time is difficult to find.

I may swap lenses over on the next airshow and see how the keeper rate compares.

Anyone else experienced anything similar?

Cheers,
 
Interesting although you have had no replies I'm very interested in what you have found and would love to know more.. I shoot the 400DOis ii with an older 1Div body. I'm hoping to upgrade said body : the 1dx and 5Div both feature on my radar,although I feel in my heart I really want a Dxii,finacial side might clobber that. My only real concern about the 5div is how well it will AF with the 400 and 2X extiii. (would you be happy using this combo for BIF for example) I exclusively make images of wildlife,As you have mentioned so much wildlife is crepuscular,so that the low light performance of a body is another key area in my reasoning

I can't answer your question sadly but I am very curious about your findings especially the one's relevent to wildlife,if you do have more to add i'd love to hear

what's ya name mate I can't be calling you Mr pid:) I half expect it s the same as mine actually

take care

stu
 
Hi Stu,

Yes you guessed correct, I am also a Stu! The nickname has stuck since school... lol

I tried a few different set ups at Duxford this weekend and i'm still not convinced. I swapped the lenses on each body halfway through the show and I must say that the 5D4 still seems softer than the 1DX.

*as a disclaimer it was a super hot, humid, close, hazy day and visibility was not great for photography. Same as Abingdon tbh, which is such a shame. Planes using smoke was taking ages to clear, meaning camera's struggles to focus and track and detail was compromised.

I spent yesterday evening doing some AFMA on the 5D4 so will test it out this week and see what I can find.

It seems to be that fast moving subjects seem to suffer the most. I shall test each IS mode as well, along with live view shooting to see if there are any noticeable differences. I have been mostly using mode 3 since doing wildlife which is amazing at stills, especially in low light. I am planning to go and have a play on the motorway and test my panning shots. The stills with the 5D4 are incredible, with amazing crop ability without losing detail.

I wouldnt be so miffed but its the first time i've ever had issues. It seems the more i upgrade my gear the more fickle it becomes. I am worried I am going to end up "all the gear, no idea" lol

Last year I was mostly shooting the 7D mkii, which is ok in good light - with an old 2.8 400mm (no is), hand held and the images were super sharp. Even at down to 1/80 second.

I will not give up until I have cracked it, just hope it will not take too long!

Stu
 
ha ha Stu what are the odds of two stu's with this lens:) Mate cheers for the reply i'd be really grateful for follow up thoughts as well,i'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it all. Stu, as someone with little experience body wise only 550D and 1Div in the digital world,i'd somehow expect the older 1 series AF to be better with the most tricky subjects,but maybe it is an MFA issue?? I understand the probs the light at the weekend might have caused you,that murk sort of worked for me ,but I was shooting very very close. As I say those two facets ISO and AF very accurate Af are my only reasons to consider moving to a new body,it's galling going home when others can keep shooting especially with those low light merchants in the wildlife world

Maybe it's a stu:D thing but I have always felt that all the gear no idea, was meant for me actually. The law of deminishing returns is so prevelent in this game, ie we can pay so so much for just that bit extra!! That bit extra though might give one that frame that is special how does one qualify that?

buddy I'm a train wreck I won't dwell, apologies for being slow to reply, I'd love to hear more from you about what's at play here. I can't suggest much to help just wish luck that you get to the bottom of it all,

take care

stu
 
I have no evidence as such but I believe that I learnt somewhere that the 1D camera processors are tuned or whatever to make them faster and the batteries with more volts play a part in its favour also.

Most people would assume the 5 years older 1d x would lose in performance tests but as the results you are getting show, even today it is a strong camera and holds its own against almost everything out there in many departments.
 
Hello there to the two Stu's :) as a nearly potential owner of the 400mm DO mk2 I am interested in how this lens performs on the 7d2 ( which I own ) and the 5d4 which is a possibility that I may own at some point, I have a 1.4x ext coming which I'll use and maybe get a 2x ext, any info shared on here will be appreciated
 
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GTG said:
I have no evidence as such but I believe that I learnt somewhere that the 1D camera processors are tuned or whatever to make them faster and the batteries with more volts play a part in its favour also.

Most people would assume the 5 years older 1d x would lose in performance tests but as the results you are getting show, even today it is a strong camera and holds its own against almost everything out there in many departments.
Click to expand...

The battery voltage does seem to play a part in my experience. I primarily use the longest lens available and the Lithium powered 1 series cameras definitely drive the AF units faster. There is also the fact that in the 1DX and 1DX2 there are three processors which (should?) allow faster response of individual functions such as AF.

My 1DX is the second fastest focusing camera that I have yet tried from any manufacturer, though the 1Dx2 beats it - just!
 
This was taken on my 400mm DO ii, with a 1.4x iii tele on my 5D4 at sunset after the light was gone at 12,800 iso at F5.6 at 1/400. My 5D4 is the only thing that surpasses the 1DX for high iso noise handling. Not tried the 1DX ii yet though...

View media item 13221
 
The 7D MkII was supposed to be the first LP-6 driven body that could match the 1 series bodies and drive Canons super telescope AF as fast. To me I always felt that the 1 series bodies still had an edge.

Also, when you fit an extender one of the extra 3 contacts that are used when it's fitted reduces the AF speed to compensate for the reduced distance the lens elements need to move to refocus.
 
Mr Pid said:
This was taken on my 400mm DO ii, with a 1.4x iii tele on my 5D4 at sunset after the light was gone at 12,800 iso at F5.6 at 1/400. My 5D4 is the only thing that surpasses the 1DX for high iso noise handling. Not tried the 1DX ii yet though...

View media item 13221
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Stu,the above is iso 5000,forgive me being picky it's probably the wrong image posted an oversight..........,I'd love to see one at 12800 though!! It's a rare chance for me to get a real world handle on IQ, of the 5Div, Being shot with a Do ii and a subject I make images of,gives me a bit of a head start apraisal wise,in comparison to what I can get from the 1Div
cheers

stu
 
Stuart Philpott said:
Stu,the above is iso 5000,forgive me being picky it's probably the wrong image posted an oversight..........,I'd love to see one at 12800 though!! It's a rare chance for me to get a real world handle on IQ, of the 5Div, Being shot with a Do ii and a subject I make images of,gives me a bit of a head start apraisal wise,in comparison to what I can get from the 1Div
cheers
Click to expand...


Sorry - my bad.

Here is a pic of a pricket I shot with the DO ii at 12,800 iso 1/250, wide open with the tele 1.4 iii at F5.6

Pretty much straight out the camera, half an hour after sunset, still perfectly useable, more so with a bit of editing.

View media item 13222
 
5D4 vs 1Dx is an interesting comparison.

Very valid comments in the posts above about micro adjustment, and also the extra grunt of the 1 series battery which will really come into play with the bigger lenses. The 1 series also has a dedicated AF/metering processor. As the cameras are different generations, I doubt the AF cases will match setting for setting as they'll need customisation.

I don't think I have ever used case 3. For airshows, case 2 covers it and for BIF; case 5 or 6 with a tweak on AF point re-selection. Will give case 3 a try since every day is a learning day.

I did a back to back comparison of 5D4 & 1DX Mark II (I know you are referring to Mark I) but the sharpness, colour saturation and contrast at high ISO was better (at least for me) on the 1Dx Mark II, even after downsampling the 5D4 images to match the lower resolution of the 1Dx Mark II. Given compatibility with my existing kit, my head said 5D4 but the heart won and have never looked back.

I'd be curious to see low light comparison of 5D4 vs 1DX (mark I) as the sensors are several generations apart. Additionally, the wider range of f8 focussing points (i.e teleconverters) in the 1 series is not to be ignored.

Given the current prices, the 1DX Mark 1 has to be the second best bang-for-the-buck of the year - 5D3 being the winner.

A morning at a nearby yachting lake and playing with settings shooting boats and BIF is great learning.

John.
 
Some very interesting comments above. Based on the reviews of the 5Div I thought it would win hands down over the 1D X mark I. At some point I want to upgrade my 7Dii to a FF but with a better AF system and low light performance.

It seems like the 1DX has a very good AF system and good low light performance. Does the relatively low megapixel make much difference in the real world?
 
JohnM100 said:
5D4 vs 1Dx is an interesting comparison.

Very valid comments in the posts above about micro adjustment, and also the extra grunt of the 1 series battery which will really come into play with the bigger lenses. The 1 series also has a dedicated AF/metering processor. As the cameras are different generations, I doubt the AF cases will match setting for setting as they'll need customisation.

I don't think I have ever used case 3. For airshows, case 2 covers it and for BIF; case 5 or 6 with a tweak on AF point re-selection. Will give case 3 a try since every day is a learning day.

I did a back to back comparison of 5D4 & 1DX Mark II (I know you are referring to Mark I) but the sharpness, colour saturation and contrast at high ISO was better (at least for me) on the 1Dx Mark II, even after downsampling the 5D4 images to match the lower resolution of the 1Dx Mark II. Given compatibility with my existing kit, my head said 5D4 but the heart won and have never looked back.

I'd be curious to see low light comparison of 5D4 vs 1DX (mark I) as the sensors are several generations apart. Additionally, the wider range of f8 focussing points (i.e teleconverters) in the 1 series is not to be ignored.

Given the current prices, the 1DX Mark 1 has to be the second best bang-for-the-buck of the year - 5D3 being the winner.

A morning at a nearby yachting lake and playing with settings shooting boats and BIF is great learning.

John.
Click to expand...

John - I am interested to hear more on your experiences with regards to the different cases for aviation photography. I have a separate thread discussing the different IS modes and how they work in the real world.

What IS modes do you usually use and with what AF selection? I usually use singl point, or expanded points but having re-freshed my memory on the capability of the AF system in both of these camera's I am thinking to try one of the larger groups. Keeping a single point on track on a 700mph jet is a bit of an ask so why not let the camera do the work? I know the only downside is that you may get the tail in focus rather than the cockpit if its very lively, but I would rather have a sharp picture with the wrong focus point than a soft picture.

Thoughts welcome
 
JohnM100 said:
5D4 vs 1Dx is an interesting comparison.

Very valid comments in the posts above about micro adjustment, and also the extra grunt of the 1 series battery which will really come into play with the bigger lenses. The 1 series also has a dedicated AF/metering processor. As the cameras are different generations, I doubt the AF cases will match setting for setting as they'll need customisation.

I don't think I have ever used case 3. For airshows, case 2 covers it and for BIF; case 5 or 6 with a tweak on AF point re-selection. Will give case 3 a try since every day is a learning day.

I did a back to back comparison of 5D4 & 1DX Mark II (I know you are referring to Mark I) but the sharpness, colour saturation and contrast at high ISO was better (at least for me) on the 1Dx Mark II, even after downsampling the 5D4 images to match the lower resolution of the 1Dx Mark II. Given compatibility with my existing kit, my head said 5D4 but the heart won and have never looked back.

I'd be curious to see low light comparison of 5D4 vs 1DX (mark I) as the sensors are several generations apart. Additionally, the wider range of f8 focussing points (i.e teleconverters) in the 1 series is not to be ignored.

Given the current prices, the 1DX Mark 1 has to be the second best bang-for-the-buck of the year - 5D3 being the winner.

A morning at a nearby yachting lake and playing with settings shooting boats and BIF is great learning.

John.
Click to expand...

Tha 5D4 only really shows a clear advantage over the 1DX at lower ISO. At higher ISO the 1DX is arguably just as good.

The 5D4 has better AF point choices at f8
 
Archie747 said:
Does the relatively low megapixel make much difference in the real world?
Click to expand...

It can`t crop the same. The files are smaller so easier to work with masses of them and easier for a PC to edit them in my experience.

I also believe the theory that lower resolution sensors are less fussy about hand shake and very high mp cameras demand better technique type of thing.
 
Mr Pid said:
John - I am interested to hear more on your experiences with regards to the different cases for aviation photography. I have a separate thread discussing the different IS modes and how they work in the real world.
Click to expand...

I was thinking that this was a bit off topic but then saw you were the OP so here goes:

The only rule on AF cases is that there is no single rule. It depends on situation, lens, body, and panning technique.

My best results on the 7D2 are with totally different settings to my 1DX2

Here are some of my learnings with the 7D2:

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/canon-7d-mk2-owners-thread.565222/page-41#post-6900451

In the end I put the 3 sliders in a MyMenu so became less reliant on AF case presets.

I used to use single point with expansion but didn’t get good results on the 7D2. However the 1Dx2 is very happy with it or alternatively single point spot focus.
 
So I have done some experimenting with the 5D4 this morning and I must say i am a little disappointed.

The majority of the pics taken are soft, even though autofocus has been achieved. I swapped the 100-400mm to the 1DX and there were still a few missed images with locked focus but the keepers were much, much higher.

I have done the AFMA with Focal twice and results are excellent, however with Ai Servo and single point focus the images are just not consistent.

I am shooting at 1/400 as this is the fastest I would go photographing prop planes.

Images to as follows:

This grasshopper was on a blade of grass, overcast day, no wind at all yet AF really, really struggled to lock focus, I was 1.5m away.

View media item 13240
You can see that focus was achieved, but it looks like I was in a sauna......

View media item 13241
 
I can't decide whether its the lens or the body, or a bit of both......

Short of sending them both to canon to be looked at I'm almost at the end of my tether.. (no pun intended)
 
Mr Pid said:
however with Ai Servo and single point focus the images are just not consistent
.
Click to expand...

Mr Pid said:
The majority of the pics taken are soft, even though autofocus has been achieved.
Click to expand...

AIservo will release the shutter whether or not focus has been achieved.....the indication of the focus point is only showing which one was active when you pressed the release button.
In AIservo, you can configure the setting to allow more or less time for focussing but it's not the same as One Shot which requires focus confirmation before the shutter activates.

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
AIservo will release the shutter whether or not focus has been achieved.....the indication of the focus point is only showing which one was active when you pressed the release button.
In AIservo, you can configure the setting to allow more or less time for focussing but it's not the same as One Shot which requires focus confirmation before the shutter activates.
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying, I'm guessing AI Servo is not the way to go for 90% static subjects. I have been reading that AI tries to constantly hunt for movement and predict where the subject might move to.

However, I did some birds in flight in my back garden, just seagulls and the like - they were all soft, despite using AI Servo, and every combination of AF points. The 1DX was still sharp though tracking the wood pigeons between the chimney stacks on multipoint focus.

I'm mostly worried as AI servo is defo the best method for aviation, especially slow moving prop planes. I will give it one mo go next weekend. If they still come back soft then I will be flummoxed. Barely any of my old 7D ii shots were soft and only the body has been swapped.
 
If I read the key correctly, your first image did not achieve focus (red on outside of square).

Have you tried it on a tripod with IS off?

For such good camera, unfortunately something does not correct. Hopefully it is still under warranty.
 
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Mr Pid said:
So I have done some experimenting with the 5D4 this morning and I must say i am a little disappointed.

The majority of the pics taken are soft, even though autofocus has been achieved. I swapped the 100-400mm to the 1DX and there were still a few missed images with locked focus but the keepers were much, much higher.

I have done the AFMA with Focal twice and results are excellent, however with Ai Servo and single point focus the images are just not consistent.

I am shooting at 1/400 as this is the fastest I would go photographing prop planes.

Images to as follows:

This grasshopper was on a blade of grass, overcast day, no wind at all yet AF really, really struggled to lock focus, I was 1.5m away.

View media item 13240
You can see that focus was achieved, but it looks like I was in a sauna......

View media item 13241
Click to expand...

The actual narrative on the right says that focus was NOT acchieved, 0 points in focus. Why would you expect it to be sharp when you have missed focus?
 
Ah yes - I didn't notice that one, I thought it had achieved focus. Not one of the 12 pics of the grasshopper on the blade of grass was in focus though.... hmmmmm
 
I took the 5D4 out tonight, sans battery grip (just to be sure) with the 500 F4 to see how it behaved.

I kept it in AI Servo, as I was looking for Roe and it behaved pretty well to be fair. Wasn't easy as the greenery has shot up over the last two weeks, most ferns now being 6-8ft high and lots of willowy grass.

Saw this young chap just as I arrived, then spent the rest of the eve stalking his dad, nice and sharp at F4, 1/400 at 1000 ISO

View media item 13246
 
For some reason the images aren’t displaying for me but I have a silly question: are both cameras set to prioritise focus over shutter release?
 
JohnM100 said:
For some reason the images aren’t displaying for me but I have a silly question: are both cameras set to prioritise focus over shutter release?
Click to expand...

Hi John, yes - both camera's are setup identical but I still get different results.

My suspicion is that if it is biased towards focus, when a subject becomes still the Servo mode is anticipating its next move and there hunt's for the next focal point, leacing to inconsistencies.

However, the hit rate on moving subjects is awful, so I can't blame Servo mode for this as well....
 
Does the Camera hunt in AI servo when focusing on a static subject.
 
No - its looks to have acquired focus on the subject, but when reviewing images on the monitor you can see that the focus plane have moved about, not much much, but enough to only have a 1/10 hit rate.

Best example was a little jumping spider on my BBQ cover. He was just wandering about, slowly and stopping often. The pics were bad, with only one seemingly in focus, but its not good enough to really shout about.

In parallel I was taking shots of spiders in my neighbour's garden last year at full stretch on the 100-400 and this were all tack sharp on my 7Dii.
 
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