20p - would you have?

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A man has been convicted of raping a young woman who had been thrown off her last bus home because she was 20p short of the fare.
Joseph Moran, 19, was found guilty by a jury at Nottingham Crown Court of rape and wounding with intent to cause GBH, police said.
The court had heard how the woman had been out with friends in the city on December 9 last year for an early Christmas celebration. It was told that she only had £4.80 to pay the £5 fare to Mansfield. The driver would not waive the 20p nor wait for her to visit an ATM opposite the bus stop.

Asked about reports that other passengers failed to give the victim the 20p she needed, the officer said: "It's difficult to speak for those people. We each make our own judgments and the people on that bus made their judgments that night. Knowing what they know now, they may wish they had given 20p."
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A sad reflection of life in the UK today?
would you have given the 20p?


Press Association
 
Bus driver recently wouldn't allow my 8-month-pregnant girlfriend on the bus because her Oyster card had run out and she was 30p short for the full fare. It was ****ing with rain, and she was crying; he still told her to get off the bus.
 
In a heartbeat, I've remember a few years ago I paid a bus fare for a couple of kids in town because they had lost there money :suspect: they had probably spent it more like but I'd rather they got home when it was still light :thumbs:

I've also given a number of women lifts home when they've been drunk, as I'd never forgive myself if I had not help them get home and something happened to them :shake:

Matt
MWHCVT
 
My wife picked up on this story earlier, I would have given her more than 20p. I'm sure she also phoned her mum and asked if she could meet her at the bus stop with the fare and the driver also refused that too. Nobody could have guessed the consequences of not helping her but still for 20p the bus driver should feel ashamed as a person for not being a little flexible.
 
Of course I'd have given her the 20p.

I'm sure drivers are given some discretion :thinking:

MWHCVT said:
I've also given a number of women lifts home when they've been drunk, as I'd never forgive myself if I had not help them get home and something happened to them :shake:

Matt
MWHCVT
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Nice one. I assume you know these women...

Cheers.
 
foggy4ever said:
My wife picked up on this story earlier, I would have given her more than 20p. I'm sure she also phoned her mum and asked if she could meet her at the bus stop with the fare and the driver also refused that too. Nobody could have guessed the consequences of not helping her but still for 20p the bus driver should feel ashamed as a person for not being a little flexible.
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Blaming the driver is a little harsh to be honest. If he let everyone who was 20/50 pence or even a pound short get on without paying the full fare I suspect he would be out of a job pretty sharpish.

In this instance (and I never understand why women do it) why was the girl alone at night, where were her friends?

But we can play the blame game all day..
 
neil_g said:
Blaming the driver is a little harsh to be honest. If he let everyone who was 20/50 pence or even a pound short get on without paying the full fare I suspect he would be out of a job pretty sharpish.

In this instance (and I never understand why women do it) why was the girl alone at night, where were her friends?

But we can play the blame game all day..
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At no point did I blame the driver I said as a person at that time of night helping out one young lady, would that be too much for him...
 
neil_g said:
Blaming the driver is a little harsh to be honest. If he let everyone who was 20/50 pence or even a pound short get on without paying the full fare I suspect he would be out of a job pretty sharpish.
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This was the last bus at 3am and the girl's journey to her home was 15 miles away! £4:80 out of a £5 fare ... you don't think he could have just taken her name/address and let the company pursue the 20p?
 
neil_g said:
Blaming the driver is a little harsh to be honest. If he let everyone who was 20/50 pence or even a pound short get on without paying the full fare I suspect he would be out of a job pretty sharpish.
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And if everyone withdraw money from the bank at the same time, the bank would collapse.
 
gramps said:
This was the last bus at 3am and the girl's journey to her home was 15 miles away! £4:80 out of a £5 fare ... you don't think he could have just taken her name/address and let the company pursue the 20p?
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That's not his job though. And how many blaggers do we think they get trying it on in a day? Especially those on the way home from a night out.

Just saying its easy to point the finger. Her not having enough money, the bus driver not letting her on, the passengers not giving her money, her mum not knowing where to go, being alone were all contributing factors. I think we should concentrate on getting the message across to women not to be out alone in dark places instead personally.

The rapist does sound like a nasty piece of work though, I suspect if it wasn't her it would've been some other poor girl that night.
 
neil_g said:
I think we should concentrate on getting the message across to women not to be out alone in dark places instead personally.
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Hmm, not sure that a bus with driver and 30 passengers is a 'dark place' but still.
I assume that you would take the same laid-back view if this had been your wife, sister or daughter?

For me, bearing in mind that this was 3am and the last bus home ... and we are talking about just 20p, this was a callous disregard for the safety of a young woman ... foolish or not.
 
neil_g said:
That's not his job though. And how many blaggers do we think they get trying it on in a day? Especially those on the way home from a night out.

Just saying its easy to point the finger. Her not having enough money, the bus driver not letting her on, the passengers not giving her money, her mum not knowing where to go, being alone were all contributing factors. I think we should concentrate on getting the message across to women not to be out alone in dark places instead personally.

The rapist does sound like a nasty piece of work though, I suspect if it wasn't her it would've been some other poor girl that night.
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But similarly, it's easy to say "Hey, if everyone tried this..." as a way of not using a bit of discretion regarding who you do and do not let on the bus without the correct money.

If it's 3am, you're the last person on that route, and there's a girl 15 miles from home missing 20p of a £5 fare, just let her on the bus. It's a common sense solution.
 
posiview said:
Nice one. I assume you know these women...

Cheers.
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Most of the time :thumbs: but a lot of the instance they would be friends of friends :thumbs: though that said I've been known to give the odd total stranger a lift also
 
And no doubt the bus driver will have many sleepless nights over this but like I say he was not the soul reason for what happened to this girl. But we all love a scapegoat.
 
neil_g said:
And no doubt the bus driver will have many sleepless nights over this but like I say he was not the soul reason for what happened to this girl. But we all love a scapegoat.
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Tragically that is true, and it makes a great headline, we should all remember the one that is at fault is the one that committed the crime, and no doubt that crime would have still been committed even if she had been allowed on the bus or someone stumped up the 20 pence, the difference being it would have happened to some other poor sole
 
neil_g said:
And no doubt the bus driver will have many sleepless nights over this but like I say he was not the soul reason for what happened to this girl. But we all love a scapegoat.
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Spot on, I was listening to a phone in today on it, a someone also pointed out, the driver also has the health and safety of the bus and other passengers to think of, and a he pointed out, if the person is drink then they are more likely to cause a problem.
 
I wouldnt want to make the bus driver the scapegoat in this case,but I would have given her the the 20p,if I was on the bus,and have done in the pass :)
 
neil_g said:
And no doubt the bus driver will have many sleepless nights over this but like I say he was not the soul reason for what happened to this girl. But we all love a scapegoat.
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Hmm, no doubt true but let's take away the rape and serious physical assault for a moment ... do you still think it's appropriate to leave a young woman 15 miles away from home at 3am for the sake of 20p?
 
Davec223 said:
Spot on, I was listening to a phone in today on it, a someone also pointed out, the driver also has the health and safety of the bus and other passengers to think of, and a he pointed out, if the person is drink then they are more likely to cause a problem.
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Where does it say that she was drunk, that does not seem to be an issue here at all.
 
gramps said:
Hmm, no doubt true but let's take away the rape and serious physical assault for a moment ... do you still think it's appropriate to leave a young woman 15 miles away from home at 3am for the sake of 20p?
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I think it wasnt appropriate that she was out on her own in the dark early hours.

We could twist the blame the other way if you like.. The bus driver was doing their job, what were the other passengers excuses? Does that make them more morally accountable?
 
Firstly, if you live 15 miles away and the fare is £5 you make damn sure you have that £5 at the end of the evening.

Bus driver should think of the health and safety implications of leaving someone vulnerable stranded for the sake of 20p. Especially when they presented several alternatives. Wouldn't have killed him to wait a couple of mins while she got the cash out. Why she didn't visit the ATM before getting the bus was a bit daft though.

It's a failing of many participants and unfortunate this woman paid a very high price due to the selfishness of others. It was 20p! 20 bloody pence which none of them would ever miss.
 
Who knows how she was handling herself when she was asking for the 20p. She could have been cursing and shouting in a loutish way. In which case I would not have given her 20p.

It's impossible to know what you would do unless you were there.
 
Was it the girl's fault for not having the fare? Was it the bus drivers fault for not waiving the 20p? The other passengers for not chipping in?

Or was it the rapist?
 
neil_g said:
I think it wasnt appropriate that she was out on her own in the dark early hours.

We could twist the blame the other way if you like.. The bus driver was doing their job, what were the other passengers excuses? Does that make them more morally accountable?
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So if you're female you're not allowed out after dark on the off chance you get attacked, which is always your fault because you were out on your own? People should be allowed to walk about at any hour free from being attacked!

You can mitigate to a point but it seems rather unfair to make people prisoners due to the behaviour of a minority. Perhaps women should be allowed to carry weapons to deal with these scumbags instead? Much better to deter them so everyone else can walk about safely rather than asking a section of the population to stay home because another section can't control themselves.
 
neil_g said:
I think it wasnt appropriate that she was out on her own in the dark early hours.
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Possibly but what an indictment that a woman cannot feel that she has the right to be out at night ... and why was she out alone ... she had been refused the protection of the bus journey!

neil_g said:
We could twist the blame the other way if you like.. The bus driver was doing their job, what were the other passengers excuses? Does that make them more morally accountable?
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The bus driver was in charge, for me he should have made a decision not to put the woman at risk. As for the passengers I believe that they are all morally accountable ... sadly though they are just indicative of the state of 'fellow-feeling' and 'social conscience' that is life today ... likely some will be saying "stupid girl's own fault".
 
I'm not saying women can't ever go out alone, I'm saying apply common sense at night. I seem to recall not going out alone is the same advise the police give.

And yes she is PARTIALLY responsible for her own actions. But I guess the headline "girl goes out alone - gets raped" doesn't sell as many papers as "girl refused bus ride - gets raped".
 
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gramps said:
Hmm, no doubt true but let's take away the rape and serious physical assault for a moment ... do you still think it's appropriate to leave a young woman 15 miles away from home at 3am for the sake of 20p?
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what about a bloke?

I had to stay in glasgow for 4 hours once between the last bus and the first train cause I spent too much cash on a night out. When the train station openned I was not the only one :lol:
 
neil_g said:
I'm not saying women can't ever go out alone, I'm saying apply common sense at night. I seem to recall not going out alone is the same advise the police give.
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I agree, but she wasn't alone until being refused the bus ride was she?

neil_g said:
And yes she is PARTIALLY responsible for her own actions. But I guess the headline "girl goes out alone - gets raped" doesn't sell as many papers as "girl refused bus ride - gets raped".
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She is not responsible for being attacked and raped!
She is responsible for being 20p short in her fare but I doubt even in her wildest dreams she imagined that the bus driver would be so inflexible on the last bus home at 3am.
 
The only person responsible is the rapist. Nobody else should feel at fault in any way, shape or form.
 
joescrivens said:
The only person responsible is the rapist. Nobody else should feel at fault in any way, shape or form.
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With respect I believe that is a cop-out ... we all have a moral responsibility to look after one another, more especially the young and/or vulnerable.
 
joescrivens said:
The only person responsible is the rapist. Nobody else should feel at fault in any way, shape or form.
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Do you leave your house unlocked when you go out? Do you leave your car keys in the ignition?

Crime needs opportunity as well as the criminal intent.
 
In a heartbeat you would give the girl the 20p she needed for her bus fare home if you were sat on that last bus.

I'd also make sure I had the £5.00 fare to make sure I got home safely in her situation.

It so sad to read of such things, sometimes you just wish you could turn back time and change things....
 
MWHCVT said:
Tragically that is true, and it makes a great headline, we should all remember the one that is at fault is the one that committed the crime, and no doubt that crime would have still been committed even if she had been allowed on the bus or someone stumped up the 20 pence, the difference being it would have happened to some other poor sole
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Only if the attacker had a foot fetish :naughty:
 
I don't think anyone is trying to attach blame for the rape to anyone but the rapist. The discussion is about a young girl a few pence short of bus fare and what I believe is a bus driver with no common sense or compassion and that also includes the passengers. There is a little more info here if you can filter out the DailyMail reporting. There is CCTV footage of the girl from the bus that lasts 8 minutes as she pleads with driver who even refuses to wait while she pops to a cash machine.
 
POAH said:
its not a cop out, its the truth
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I beg to differ, it's only the truth if you opt out of civilised society.
The rapist/attacker is certainly responsible for the crime but the woman wouldn't have been raped if the 30-odd others hadn't been so unfeeling as to allow her to be put in that position.
 
gramps said:
I agree, but she wasn't alone until being refused the bus ride was she?

She is not responsible for being attacked and raped!
She is responsible for being 20p short in her fare but I doubt even in her wildest dreams she imagined that the bus driver would be so inflexible on the last bus home at 3am.
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In the context of what I'm saying I'd believe not being alone to be in the company of a friend/known person.

I didn't say she was responsible for being raped. I said she was responsible for her actions, some of which contributed in the horrible outcome of the evening.

Same goes for me, I'm not a big fan of being robbed and/or assaulted so I don't walk around in the dark alone talking about how much money is in my wallet on my shines iPhone 4s.

We're all primarily responsible for our own safety, you can't guarantee anyone else will look out for you. Sad but true.
 
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